Episode 48: Urban Legends: Converting the Horror Aversive

Happy Halloween! Spooky season is upon us and we need your help to settle a dispute! While we both love fall, Ivy has a fondness for the creepy, crawly, scary aspects of the season but Autumn most definitely does not. Now we’re not debating whether horror is good or bad entertainment, or even necessarily whether it’s good or evil. No, we’re at an impasse about whether or not it has any merit at all within society, culture, or the individual human psyche. So please, gather around the campfire with us while we dip our toes into the spooky realm to explore some classic urban legends and discuss whether these stories are worthy of passing along to scare yet another generation. We’re even joined by a special guest storyteller who will delight and terrify us with his rendition of these classic creepy tales. How do you feel about urban legends or the genre of horror? Write in and give us your thoughts here. Don’t forget to check out our resources page for this episode here as well. And if you’d like some extra spook, join us on Patreon at www.patreon.com/differentfunctional Thanks for listening!

AUTUMN 

 0:00 

 Welcome to the Different Functional Podcast, where we explore the triumphs and challenges of trauma recovery and being neurodivergent in a neurotypical world. In today's episode, we're going to give a nod to Halloween by talking all about horror. We're going to be exploring urban legends and whether or not there's actual worth in telling and retelling and retelling these urban legends. And we're actually going to have a special guest with us today, which I will get to shortly. 

But to start with, I am Autumn, the older sister. And for my fact of the day, I just want to say I'm not really into scary stories at all, or horror at all. I don't see the appeal in them. And I know this is super judgmental, but honestly, and I'm sorry to say this because I know Ivy likes them, I kind of see people that like horror as just a little psychopathic. 

 IVY 

 0:52 

 Okay, I won't take that personally. I could, but I'm not going to. I'm the younger sister, Ivy, and I am beyond stoked to do this episode because spooky season is my favorite time of year. And while I'm probably not like a hardcore horror junkie, I do love spooky stories. I do like horror movies. I even like watching the making of horror movies. I just find all of it really fascinating, and I find it fascinating, just kind of the darker side of humanity and the things that we're drawn to. So I'm super excited to do this episode because I love spooky stories and I like urban legends, even though I've heard most of them a million times over. I just think that they're fun. 

 AUTUMN 

 1:29 

Well, at least one of us will find it fun today. Or maybe there'll be two of us, because we actually have invited a special guest, which I mentioned, to join us today to tell these stories. Since Ivy is, as she said, pro horror. And I'm pretty much anti horror, we thought, why not get a neutral third party involved? And since I know almost nobody, I convinced my boyfriend Jake to be with us today. And so Jake, do you wanna maybe give us a fact of the day? Introduce yourself to the different Functional Podcast world? 

 JAKE 

 2:04 

Yeah, my fact of the day is that I love Halloween. Halloween is my favorite season, bar none. But I really don't like paranormal stuff. It's just it's creepy. Like, I believe in the possibilities of anything. And so that story could possibly be true. And that scares me. So Halloween: Good. Paranormal: Bad. 

 AUTUMN 

 2:24 

 So maybe our storyteller isn't quite as neutral as we're making him out to be, but he is still, I think, a fairly good storyteller. At least we hope so. 

 IVY 

 2:35 

I have total confidence in Jake's ability to tell a story. I got to hear a little bit of a test run of him telling a story earlier, and he has like, just the perfect creepy vibes. Autumn also did a test, and she sounded a little bit like she was telling horror stories to a group of kindergarten children. Like she was reading to them from a picture book and showing them the pictures that she's reading. That's kind of what she sounded like. Which is a kind of creepy, but don't think quite the creepy that we're looking for. 

I can't talk me shit because I am a horrible storyteller, so I didn't even do a test run because I did not care to humiliate myself. But I have total faith in Jake's ability to tell some good stories. I think I'm going to have to work really hard to convert both of you over to my way of thinking about how awesome these kinds of stories are. 

 AUTUMN 

 3:19 

 I don't know, I kind of would enjoy hearing Ivy’s, but I feel like if we heard Ivy's retelling of the urban legends, it would actually turn this into a true crime podcast because Ivy would then supplement, like, all of this during the story with the facts and data from the true crime, because she's also really into true crime. 

 IVY 

 3:40

Yeah, that's definitely a possibility. Here's what I'll do. We'll take Jake's test run, Autumn's test run, and I'll do a test run, and we'll put that on our Patreon for our patrons if they want to hear and make their own judgments about which one of us is the best storyteller. I will make that sacrifice for Patreon. I'll humiliate myself for Patreon, because it's not the general public, but I won't be a storyteller on here for the whole world here, because that would be really embarrassing. 

 AUTUMN 

 4:01 

 That's fair. And also, I do want to note that on our Patreon, we will be taking all of the stories that Jake is telling today and just having that file. So if you just are interested in the urban legends and just want a recording of a creepy storyteller voice telling you all these urban legends, well, join our Patreon and you can get access to that.

For right now, let's go ahead and jump into some of these urban legends. So the very first story we're going to talk about is Bloody Mary. And Jacob, I'm going to hand it over to you so that you can lay your storytelling charm upon us. 

 JAKE 

 4:35 

Sweet. I wouldn't hold my breath, but, you know, here we go. 

No one really knows who Bloody Mary is. There are, of course, a lot of theories. Maybe she was a witch named Mary Worth who killed girls to steal their youth. Maybe she was a girl who was buried alive. Or just someone who died in an accident. 

But they say you can summon her. All you need to do is light a candle in an otherwise dark room. Face a mirror with your eyes closed, and then you say her name three times. Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary. Then when you open your eyes, suddenly she's there, her body dripping with blood and gore, standing right behind you, her lips twisted in a grimace of pain. 

No one really knows what will happen next. Maybe she will let you go. Maybe she'll murder you right there in the bathroom. Your blood splashed on a shower curtain and dripping onto the tiles. Or maybe she'll just drag you into the mirror where she'll trap you with her forever. Are you brave enough to find out? To call her name in the dark. Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary.

 AUTUMN 

 5:46 

 Okay, I have to admit, that was a little creepy, and I'm going to have trouble looking in the mirror tonight. 

 IVY 

 5:52 

 That was actually really good, actually. I'm impressed. Jake. 

 AUTUMN 

 5:56 

 All right, so let's start talking about this here then. With Bloody Mary, I want to know, is this really based on truth? Because with urban legends, that's the whole idea is this happened to a friend of a friend or somebody. Even growing up, I heard of Bloody Mary and got yanked into trying to do this. Though, I point out refused because no social belonging is worth exposing myself this kind of horror. But is it based on truth? I mean, what do you think, Ivy? You've got the true crime podcast stuff going on over there. What do you know about this story? 

 IVY 

 6:26 

 I mean, I know quite a bit about a lot of these urban legends because I'm just really fascinated by them. So I've heard a lot of the stories over and over again. And the thing with Bloody Mary, it's been around for so long, nobody really knows what the origin of it is. If there is, I mean, obviously I'm going to say obviously, the paranormal probably does not exist at all. I doubt anybody has ever actually witnessed Bloody Mary. Correct me if I'm wrong. I have a feeling nobody has. 

But as far as like origin story, there are so many different stories. There are some people that think it's based on Queen Mary the first, who was actually known as Bloody Queen Mary because of how many people she had killed during her reign. But it seems like from my research, the most common theory is that the origin of it has to do with a woman named Mary Worth. Who was accused by her village of being a witch. The young girls that were disappearing in the village, and they eventually traced it back to Mary Worth as she was trying to lure another girl into the woods. And essentially the idea is that she was killing these girls and either drinking or bathing in their blood in order to make herself younger, essentially. 

Which is kind of a combination of just general folklore about witches, but also the story of Countess Bathory, who supposedly murdered tons and tons of girls who had been sent to her as servants, and she had them killed, and she would bathe in their blood, supposedly in order to make herself younger. So I feel like there's probably a lot of different things that are contributing to the origin of this story, some of it relating to actual, either historical facts or historical myths, and then some of it really just, you know, your run of the mill witch folklore that we hear around Halloween. 

 AUTUMN 

 8:08 

With that run of the mill witch folklore - like you're talking about the idea that there is somebody that was just killing people and bathing in their blood, which mean even nowadays that when it surprised me with all the crazy serial killers out there, that's a little disconcerting. 

Part of the thing that creeps me out about this is, like Jake, I am a believer in the paranormal, and in my personal experience, spirits do appear in voids. The empty picture frame, the reflection in the glass, or very specifically mirrors. And I also believe that you can invite certain things into your life. And so I think this one, I kind of wonder if some of this is that which folklore, but if also there's that little bit of that paranormal in that, because there's a lot of people that believe in the paranormal, they talk about spirits appearing in mirrors. And I wonder if that's part of where this is coming from, is that idea of you are literally inviting potentially a very violent and negative spirit to appear within a void in your house, and that that's honestly scares the shit out of me. 

 IVY 

 9:10 

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some of that. Like, I don't believe in Bloody Mary specifically as an entity that would appear in a mirror. But I do believe in aspects of the paranormal and that spirits can manifest themselves through voids or through mirrors. So I can definitely see why that would be frightening for anybody who does believe in the paranormal. Since Jake said that he is freaked out by the paranormal, I'm kind of curious his feelings about this particular story. 

 JAKE 

 9:39 

Oh, I definitely see this being possible. Like from that aspect, I don't know that mirrors are a one way thing. There's so much possible, there's so much that we don't know. And then stuff like this comes along and plays on it. 

I could see somebody sitting around a campfire at night. This gets talked about and like yeah that happened to my cousin, and it could be a real thing. And that's why it freaks me out, just because stuff like that is possible, so you never really know. 

 AUTUMN 

 10:13 

I think that is definitely a valid point. And part of me wonders though, because with these urban legends, there is - you tell it because, oh, it scares people and you get your date to get freaked out and like, cling up on you more. Which is that why you're choosing to tell the creepy stories today, Jake, so that I'll get freaked out and clean up on anymore? 

JAKE

 10:23

Nah, you do that anyway. 

AUTUMN 

 10:26

That's true. Okay, but beyond that, I do wonder what's the moral of this? Because I feel like a lot of these urban legends have morals. But what's the moral behind this story? 

 IVY 

 10:34 

You know, this is one of those ones where it doesn't have a strong of a moral to the story that a lot of other urban legends do. And maybe it's partially because it's just been around for so long. And maybe kind of the moral of the story might have gotten lost along the way. 

I think the only moral of the story that's really left here is that for people who do believe in the paranormal and do believe in the occult, it's kind of one of those things where like, don't open a door that you can't close. It's kind of that don't fuck with the unknown sort of thing. I think that's probably the only moral of this story that's left, because there's really nothing else to be gained from it, I don't think. 

I mean, maybe there's kind of like a correlation between this idea of Bloody Mary either killing you or dragging you into the mirror, and then the idea of the devil causing your death and dragging you down into hell. I think maybe it's kind of more of the aspect of don't fuck with the unknown. But then also maybe these religious overtones of don't fuck with the devil because he'll drag you down to hell. 

AUTUMN 

 12:09 

I could see both of that. And, you know, on that idea of don't fuck with the unknown and don't fuck with the paranormal: this story then might actually have, in my personal opinion, some validity though. Because I actually knew - she was a really sweet girl - she was a coworker, a lady I worked with, and she loved the idea of paranormal and ghosts in all of the spirits and everything. But she wasn't one of those people that was sensitive to it that could pick up on the vibes. And she was always so enthused about jumping in. And so, like, I had another coworker that was pretty sure there was something not good, you know, spirit wise, in her apartment. And she was asking me and another of my friends for advice on how do I cleanse it, how do I get rid of this? And this really sweet coworker was like, let's get a Ouija board, let's talk with it. Let's get involved with it. And both me and my other friend were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!  Because we'd been through some of the spirit shit and we were like, let's not let's not anger the violent spirits that may or may not exist in this sweet lady's apartment. That's not a good idea. 

And so, in my mind, if this Bloody Mary in any way is a cautionary tale to not just go around poking dead things with sticks that might bite back, I don't know, I think maybe it has some merit. 

 IVY 

 12:44 

 I think it has some merit too, for the purposes of that cautionary tale. But I think it also has merit because it has been around for just such a long time. And there's, I think, there's a lot of power in mythology. That's why some of these stories last for such a long time. It becomes almost this cultural phenomenon, and it becomes almost a rite of passage for every generation to kind of at least explore these stories, even if they don't act on them. 

I think I acted on Bloody Mary once. We were visiting some, ironically, some church friends when we were growing up, and Autumn did not come into the bathroom with us, but I went into the bathroom with all of the siblings from my family. And I did the whole thing and nothing happened. I don't know, maybe she was just feeling a little stage fright because there were so many of us in the room. I don't know if you have to be by yourself for it.

But it is kind of like a rite of passage. There’s a reason that memory sticks in my head when there's so many things that you experience as a child, and yet that is one of the few things that really stuck in my head that I remember. So I do think that this story is worth retelling, if for no other reason than it is kind of a cultural phenomenon. Something that does get passed from one generation to the next. And I think that there is something really amazing about mythology and I think this is part of modern day mythology and was part of the mythology of years past as well. 

 AUTUMN 

 13:57 

I suppose that's true. I just remember having been asked on a few occasions and denying it. I don't even - we have currently in our house, we have one mirror and we keep it covered all the time. So maybe Jake and I are just like really paranoid for no reason. 

 IVY 

 14:13 

I want to know if Jake thinks it's worth retelling.

 JAKE 

 14:14 

Oh yeah, I definitely think it's worth retelling. I think that any good story is. Because that's how a lot of stuff gets handed down and passed down. And yeah, now we have the internet and that's all great dandy. But it's the people telling their kids or the grandparents telling the grandkids, and it's that kind of stuff that sticks with you, the memories. I think that any good stories worth retelling, even if it's a scary story or a story you don't necessarily vibe with. Maybe you might not, but your friend might or your kid might. So I think word of mouth is good in that way. 

 AUTUMN 

 14:48 

 I can see that kind of chiming in on Ivy's idea of that oral tradition and that mythology and continuing that along. Because there is something special and unique about having stories told over a campfire directly to one another versus just reading it on the internet. It's a whole separate thing. It's a whole, I guess it’s a piece of your identity and development in a way. 

Though, I guess that would point out that you are a much more neutral party than I am, because a lot of these I'm like, well, it's scary and I don’t like it, so no, it should not be told.  But Jake's like, I don't like the concept, but I suppose there's merit for other humans. So I guess there's that. 

All right, so let's look at our next urban legend. And that is the Killer in the Back Seat. So I'm going to turn this back over to Jake here. 

 JAKE 

 15:33 

 It had been a long and hard day of work. It was now late at night and Kelly was more than ready to get home. As she drives the dark, winding and desolate road, she notices a truck behind her. It's approaching fast and flashing its high beams. Kelly thinks maybe the driver wants to pass, so she slows down, but he just won't pass. She tries speeding up, driving a little faster, but he’s still tailgating her. No matter the speed, he stays right on her bumper, flashing his lights more and more frequently. 

The way home is long and there are no convenient lighted stops along the way. Kelly begins to panic. Tears are streaming down her face. Her knuckles white on the steering wheel as she prays to anyone listening to let her make it home safe. 

Finally, she pulls into her driveway, the truck fast behind her. She blares her horn, hoping her husband will hear and rush out. She leaps from the car, yelling for her husband, stumbling as she runs for the safety of her home and her husband's arms. The man in the truck leaps out as well, running straight for her. Her husband rushes out of the house, wraps Kelly into his arms, and looks around to see what his young wife is so upset about. Kelly turns in his arms, her heart still racing, and sees the man in the truck stopped at her own car. He's ripped open her back door and is pulling a struggling man from the back seat. 

Finally, the man is subdued. Police called. The story slowly unfolds. The driver had noticed the silhouette of a man in the back seat, trying to creep up behind her with a knife. Every time the man in the back seat would sit up, the truck driver would speed closer to her car, flashing his brights, hoping to scare the man and warn her of danger. Kelly had been terrified of the man following her in the truck, but the whole time the killer had been in her back seat. 

 AUTUMN 

 17:38 

 Whoo. Okay, I'm not going to be sleeping well tonight. I'm just going to say that right now. I'm going to have some issues with this. And I can only imagine because I know in post edit, Ivy's going to add some, like, creepy vibes to this. I don't know if I'm going to be able to listen to the creepy vibes, because I'm already getting the creepy vibes with just this alone. I am so weak when it comes to horror. 

Okay, so let's start with the first question here. Do we think this is based on any sort of truth? Ivy, what are your thoughts here? 

 IVY 

 18:06 

I have researched this one a lot because this is one that I remember from, I think it was in Alvin Schwartz's book, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, and it stuck with me. I read that book when I was a kid. I wish I had not read it when I was a kid, because I was definitely very sensitive to horror at that time, like Autumn. Because we just weren't allowed to have any exposure to horror of any kind, because our mom was very much against it. But I did sneak and read that book, and while most of the stories were not memorable to me, they didn't stick with me. That one really did. And so I've researched that one a lot over the years.

And there's no reports of a story that's like, identical to this. There is no reports of a story where there is this truck driver that's following this woman who is trying to warn her by flashing his high beams. But that does not mean that there's never been somebody in the backseat or somebody's car, because things like that have happened. The research that I found, the oldest reported case that I could find was in 1935, in Palo Alto, California. There was a man hiding in the back seat of a car. He attacked two girls in the car and threw them out of the car and stole both the car and all of their valuables. So that is something that actually could happen, has happened. 

So I think there is definitely viability to this story. I think it's possible that this story at some point could play out almost exactly to the tee to the urban legend. But I do think it draws from reality. And part of the reason why I find this story so fascinating, too, is because I have known so many women over the course of my life who always check the backseat of their car before they get in, because whether they found this story from the same source that I did in that same book, or they heard it just as an urban legend kind of passed around through the grapevine, it is a story that sticks with a lot of women, because women often are the targets of violence in our society. 

And that would be an incredibly plausible concept that somebody could get into your car, be hiding out in the backseat, and if you don't check your backseat before you get in, especially if you get into your car someplace that's dark, if you're walking through a dark parking garage and you're just trying to get to your car because you feel like your car means safety, if someone managed to get into your car and they're in the back seat, that could very plausibly end very badly for you. So I think there is a lot of viability to this story, and it is very much a cautionary tale that I think is rooted in reality, even if it's not completely true to the urban legend as we're told it. 

 AUTUMN 

 20:40 

 I think I would have to agree with that. I mean, I'm not into the true crime stuff. I am into the fake crime stuff. So like Criminal Minds or Law and Order and this idea has actually come up in shows like that quite a lot. Like Ivy, I remember hearing this as a kid as well. And when I started driving, I always checked my backseat. Hell, some of the times, because I would have a pickup truck, I would flip the seat forward, even though there was no conceivable way somebody could get between the seat in the back of the cab, I still flipped it open. And then if I'm going out late at night, I do -I look in the back seat, I look under the car before I approach it. When I unlock it, I unlock it quickly. I dive in, and then I lock it again, and then I turn around and do another check before driving. 

So I do think this is definitely one of those cautionary tales, but I feel like this is more directed at women. I mean, do you have any familiarity with this story, Jake?  As a child, or has it played out in any sort of cautionary way in your life?

 JAKE 

 21:31 

 Oh, yeah. I don't know if it's this exact story, but my first experience with this was a movie, I think back from the 90s, called Urban Legends. Literally, that was the movie title. And there was something similar in that if I if I recall correctly, and ever since then, no matter what, I always check my car. I mean, I know you said that leans more towards women, but I still do that as well. Every time I'm in a car, I don't care. I'll check the back seat. I'll check everything just because it can happen to anyone. 

 AUTUMN 

 22:02 

 It's interesting to hear that from a male perspective, though, because in my mind, when I first heard this and I was talking about, I'm like, oh yeah, this is definitely for the girls out there. Like, this is part of the rape culture and all that. But it's interesting to see that it's also affected males as well, that males are also concerned like, holy shit, somebody could - because like I said, I think it is viable. You have a car in the dark and it's hopefully locked, but how easy is it to pick that or possibly crawl in through the trunk if your trunk doesn't seal very well and then you've got somebody sitting back there. And if you never look, you don't know and you don't want to find out because there's a knife at your throat or a bullet in your head or something like that. So it's interesting to know that it also is targeted towards or at least has affected males as well.

 IVY 

 22:40 

I mean, I do think that this urban legend is something that is universal for all people because whether you're a woman or a man, somebody's coming at you with a weapon from the back seat and you're in the driver's seat, especially if you're already driving. You are incredibly vulnerable. It does not matter if you are a woman or if a man. 

I mean, as far as I have ever been aware of, I've never heard a retelling of this story where it's a man that's driving the car where there's a murderer in the backseat, but obviously this is something that's universal. Because, again, regardless, just based on the logistics of everything, anybody would be vulnerable in a situation. 

I did want to note that Jakes mentioned the movie Urban Legend. The version of this story in that movie is a different variation on the story, where there's not a truck driver coming from behind. In that variation, a woman goes to a gas station where there's actually an attendant there. It's self-serve, and the attendant notices the guy in the back seat and tries to kind of get her to come into the gas station by telling her her card didn't work. And so he tries to get her to come into the gas station, and she comes into the gas station, and she is creeped out by the attendant thinking he is going to do something to her. He brings her in the gas station, locks the door, she tries to escape, and he has to explain to her why he brought her into safety. 

And I think it's very interesting that in both variations of the story, there is the added element of it's not just that there's a danger in your back seat that somebody has saved you from. It's that there is a danger in your back seat that somebody saved you from, but the person who saved you from it is the person that you initially think is the threat. Which I find to be an interesting component of this story. 

And I do think that that part actually does speak more to women in our culture, because we are taught as women to always be on guard and that anybody can be a threat. And so it would not be surprising that a woman would think that the person trying to protect her is actually a danger to her and miss the actual danger. Because you can only be aware and wary of so many things at one time. And I think that's a really interesting complexity that's added to the story, regardless of the variation. 

 AUTUMN 

 24:51 

 The fact that I've said that most of these reiterations, if not all of the reiterations, have a woman in the front seat. I'm kind of wondering if part of that is just the fact that women are allowed to be scared? Because as a cautionary tale, this has validity for anybody, no matter where you're at on the gender spectrum. And so maybe it's mostly told as a woman as a driver, because women are allowed to be scared, but men aren't. 

If somebody is in the backseat of a car and you're a guy driving, well, obviously you should all of a sudden become James Bond. And just like throat punch him without looking and be able to like, I don't know, do some crazy Fast and Furious road trick and throw him out of the car. But if you're a woman, it's okay to be screaming in terror. But the reality is, is I'm sorry, most males or females, if somebody was in the backseat of your car, you're going to be freaking out regardless. There’s probably going to be some screaming and not a whole lot of throat punching initially. 

 IVY 

 25:43 

Yeah,  I would even take that a step further and say that it's not just a double standard in terms of women are allowed to be scared. But I would also point to in our culture, men are not allowed to be victims. Men cannot be victimized. So I think that's also an interesting subcontext that goes into this story is that yes, it's always a woman who is kind of the main protagonist of this story. And I think in part that exists because men are not victims. 

Like that is how societally we have viewed this for a long time. And that's only recently started to shift. And we've started to acknowledge that there is validity to men also being victimized. And there's no shame in that, that anybody could be victimized. But these urban legends, many times it is a woman in danger. And in a lot of horror movies it is also a woman in danger. There's the final girl archetype in a lot of horror movies, especially slasher movies, because women are victims, men are not victims. So it's not only that women are allowed to be scared of men or not, but women are automatically put in a victim role and men are not. 

 AUTUMN 

 26:52 

 Yeah. If we're going to point out that double standard, I feel like we need to point out the other double standard here, which is men are always perpetrators. Because I'm sorry, I've known some crazy ass women that if you happen to, like, be the one that their boyfriend or husband cheated on with, there's a good chance that girl might be hiding in your back seat, ready to rip your hair out, or do something extremely evil because they're jealous. But in all these retellings, it's the man that's the perpetrator. And I feel like that's says something too. Because, I mean, the very fact that Jake is here telling the story, part of the reason he's here telling the story is his voice sounds a little creepier. Why does it sound a little creepier? Because it's deeper. It's more male, therefore it's more threatening. How does that feel, Jake? Being creepy and threatening just because you're a guy? 

 JAKE 

 27:37 

 I mean, that's par for the course. But I think it's interesting. I think it's also interesting that in this scenario, the driver of the vehicle, female, runs up to a shopkeeper. The shopkeeper was male. And how would that be any different if that was a female shopkeeper? Would there be more of a sisterhood bond? Or what if the driver was male and it was a male shopkeeper? Is he going to see a conflict there? I wonder how varying the genders on that kind of plays into this. 

 AUTUMN 

 28:12 

 That is a really good point I hadn't thought about because any one of those three, if you vary any of those genders, I feel like this would play out very, very differently in our society.

 IVY 

 28:19 

Yeah, I would agree with that too. I think it's impossible to look at this story without looking at all of the cultural context around gender. Because while Autumn pointed out that this story would perpetuate the idea that men are always the predator, in all the variations of this story, it's always a man who's the savior to. So I find that dichotomy kind of interesting as well, because it's like men are always the threat, but they're always the protectors too. 

And women are just kind of like these hapless victims that are just kind of tossed upon the seas of, of fate, you know. Because if the killer had gotten to her before the other person got to her, it's just - I think it's impossible to look at the story without thinking about all of the biases and prejudices and just kind of these ingrained notions that we have around gender. I think that is a really interesting aspect of this story that doesn't - because, yeah, if you change the gender, any of the people in this story, it does change the dynamic for sure. 

 AUTUMN 

 29:21 

 And that's not even speaking towards people that are on either end of the gender spectrum. If you're non-binary or if you happen to be transgender or something like that, that doesn't even then look at that piece at all, because I think that adds in a whole, a whole new range of things. 

So in the end, though, I do think this story is worth retelling. And yes, it is scary, but I feel like this one is very potentially viable. And it's a good cautionary risk whether you're man, woman, non-binary, transgender, anything in between. I think this is a good cautionary idea to have in your mind that the world isn't necessarily safe.

But I do think in the retelling of this story, it might be worth retelling the story and mixing up some of those genders so that we do have this cautionary tale without all of this societal bullshit. 

 IVY 

 30:24 

I also agree that this is a story that's worth retelling, and it does stick with a lot of people, because most people can remember where they first heard this story or heard some concept that was akin to this story. It is a valuable cautionary tale, because we do all need to be more aware. As much as it would be nice to not have to worry about being harmed by other people, that's just not a reality. But it's something we all need to be aware of. 

I agree with Autum too, that we should probably change up some things. And I think that is part of the power and the beauty of mythology is that myths evolve over time and they do change with the times. And I think that would be one of the best ways with this story, to start adapting it to more modern times, is to not look at these things through the lens of gender and traditional views on predators and saviors and victims. But to really take gender out of the equation and make it much more universal. What are your feelings on this story, Jake? 

 JAKE 

 31:13 

 I think that it's definitely worth retelling. I'm one of those constant vigilance people. I always like to know everything where I'm at, what I'm doing, who's around me. And so for me, this is a good safety retelling. I mean, there's definitely horror and scary aspects to it, but there's a lot of real life rooted in this too, and a lot of good lessons. 

 AUTUMN 

 31:34 

 Almost kind of like an OSHA safety video that you have to watch before work, but for life. You know, that’s what this reminds me of.

Okay, so let's go ahead and move on to the next story on our list, the next urban legend, and that is the hook man. So I will go ahead and turn this back over to Jake, and he can regale us with the tale of the hook man. 

[Time stamps omitted from here forward due to technical issues.]

 JAKE 

It's a warm summer evening in 1950s America. The air was heavy with the humidity and the promise of a summer night unchaperoned. Johnny and Ginny had found the perfect parking spot on Lover's Lane. As they're making out, the windows fogging, an important news bulletin abruptly interrupts the music playing on the car radio. 

The newscaster cuts in, announcing the escape of a dangerous convict escaped from a nearby hospital for the criminally insane. He goes on to warn that the man in question is known to be murderous, and that he is one distinctive feature that makes him even more dangerous. One of his hands is missing and in its place as a sharp metal hook. 

Ginny shivers, a slight chill entering the warm light, but Johnny reassures her, promising that they are safe. There's no reason that the mad man would come out there. Ginny lets herself be convinced and wooed back into them, but just as they're starting to kiss again, they hear a strange scraping sound on the outside of the car. They catch a quick glimpse of a tall figure wearing a long, dark coat and hat obscuring his face. The frightened couple throws the car into reverse and then drives away as quickly as they can. Ginny straightening her blouse as Johnny's tires spin and squeal them back onto the highway. 

The safety of the familiar roads and their neat town begins to reassure them. Both of them feel ridiculous and laugh at their own reaction was probably just that creep from school spying on them. They slowly turn into Ginny's driveway. Johnny gets out reluctantly, not wanting the night to end so early. He walks around the car to open the door for Ginny, and that's when he sees it. There hanging from the handle of the passenger door is a sharpened metal hook. 

 AUTUMN 

So is there any basis in reality on this one, Ivy? Is there any true crime stuff out there that gives this like its origin? 

IVY

Yeah, I mean, there's no story as far as I'm aware of, of an actual hook man that escaped from an asylum for the criminally insane. But there have been plenty of Lover's Lanes attacks and murders over the years. You just type in Lover's Lane murders on Google, and it will probably bring up lots of different stories. I'm going to focus in on a couple of different ones to link in to this story that I think will be at least somewhat recognizable for most people. 

The first one that I'm going to talk about is the Texarkana moonlight murders. And they actually did make a movie that was supposed to be loosely based on this story called The Town that Feared Sundown. So there were multiple attacks around the same period of time in the same general area. Some of the attacks people survived. The first attack where there were survivors happened in 1946. A man named Jimmy Hollis and his girlfriend, Mary Jean Leary. They were parked on the lover's lane. They were attacked. They managed to survive. And then we have two couples that did not survive the attack. Richard Griffin and his girlfriend Polly Ann Moore: they were both shot to death on a lover's lane. And then not long after that, we had Paul Martin and Betty Booker, who were also shot to death on a lover's lane. And all of these attacks happened in such a short period of time, and there was so much fear around it. And as far as I'm aware, these were not solved murders. And that's part of what made it so terrifying for the town. And that was part of what made it scary enough for, based on a true story, horror movies to be made out of it. 

But these are definitely memorable Lover's Lane murders that have actually happened in history. And it's interesting to me that this particular urban legend seemed to kind of gain popularity in the 50s. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but most of the retellings I've heard of this story seem to be from the 1950s. Like, the idea of this story seems to have a lot of themes to do in the 1950s, which makes me wonder if the Texarkana murders really did serve as the main inspiration for this story, because those murders did happen in 1946. And so it would make sense that over the next few years, some mythology would spring up around that. 

But that's not the only case, obviously, of Lover's Lane murders that we've seen. In 1969, the Zodiac Killer, he attacked a couple at Lake Berryessa: Brian Calvin Hartnell and Cecilia Ann Shepard. Both of them were stabbed repeatedly by the Zodiac. And this story is pretty memorable to most people because the zodiac was never caught as he killed lots of people, and he also had a tendency to wear an executioner's hood when he committed his crimes. That was also the case in this situation. 

The man, Brian, he survived. Cecilia ended up dying from her wounds a couple of days after the attacks, but before she died, she was able to give a statement to police. And she did see this man before he put on the hood, watched him put on the hood before he approached them. It was quite an ordeal for the couple. 

And so I think that we have enough of these stories that are linked to either prolific serial killers, or that there have been movies that were made based on some of these actual murders. That it's not surprising we have an urban legend like this that talks about Lover's Lane murders, because we do actually have historical events that we can point to and draw correlations between the urban legend and real life events.

Where the hook part of the story comes from, I'm not entirely sure. But we do actually have real life Lover's Lane murders that we can point to in history that make this a very real cautionary tale. 

 AUTUMN 

 59:41 

What kind of gets me about this is I can get why we would tell this story, because one, it's cautionary and people were actually getting gunned down or stabbed. And so it's like, hey, watch out if you're parking on a backcountry lane. So there's just some cautionary advice there. But I feel like another piece of this, especially coming from the 1950s, and there was a lot more restrictive mentality around sexuality, it was a, you know, if you goof around on the lover's lane, you're going to get attacked. 

What's really weird to me, though, is, like you said, Ivy, that hook part. Because we have actual things where people are getting stabbed to death. And I don't know about you, but I would imagine back in the 1950s because I think there was less crime at least talked about overtly, especially in these traditional little white neighborhoods that this probably came about in, somebody being stabbed would be really horrifying. Why did we need to throw in a hook? Like, what purpose does that serve? It's like not only you will get stabbed to death, but the guy will have a hook. Like, where does that come in? What's that about? 

 IVY 

 60:42 

I honestly don't really know. The only thing that I can figure is the scary aspect of, like, this person doesn't need to carry a weapon. They have a built-in weapon. Because I remember as a child when I first heard this story, that was the part that was so scary to me. It's like they don't need a gun, they don't need a knife, they don't need any other weapon on them because they literally have a built-in weapon. And this is a pretty terrifying weapon. The idea of being stabbed to death with a hook. Yeah, being stabbed to death with anything is pretty horrific. But something about that imagery really does like stick in your brain into something that's very memorable. Everybody remembers that aspect of this story, that it was a hook that the guy had. 

 AUTUMN 

 61:25 

 Do you have any thoughts, Jake, on why murder wasn't enough and we needed to introduce a guy with a hook into this?

 JAKE 

 61:31 

 Well, I'm going to go conspiracy. That it was either some teenagers pulling a prank or the PTA trying to scare their kids. Because it's a hook. Okay, first of all, it gets stuck in the door. So you have physical proof that the guy was there without actually seeing him. But also now - did he just lets go of the hook with the hand that he didn't have? I just find it odd that the hook is stuck in the door, giving proof of an event that may or may not have happened, but succeeding in scaring the target audience. I'm going to go with the prank. 

 AUTUMN 

 62:04 

 That would actually make sense. So if you did have these kind of murders happening back then, you could have had people pulling pranks like getting a hook or something like that, trying to find a way to prank their buddies. Or with the PTA to make sure you stay away from it, adding that extra level of fear. 

Do we even retell this story anymore? I feel like every reiteration I look up is very 1950s, maybe the 60s. Anymore, if I see this in my, you know, my fake crime shows, it is just the couple got gunned down or the couple got stabbed. We don't have this whole elaborate hook thing with it. Are there any retellings that aren't just 1950s 60s stuff? 

 IVY 

 62:41 

 Not that I've really been able to find. I do think that the hook is kind of an outdated concept, and that's part of why we don't hear this urban legend talked about so much anymore. I'm sure there are some modern retellings of it where the dude doesn't have a hook, but it's not as memorable as being like, oh, they got shot, or oh, they got stabbed with a knife. 

I feel like in part, the hook was part of the story, because it was supposed to be imagery that would really stick in people's minds, and the hook is used as like a literal hook for the story. And maybe that's what it is too. Maybe it is a literal hook to hook people in to this story. And the idea that there is a certain numbness that we do get from this overexposure to these concepts of brutal and terrifying deaths. And so I think the hook is just odd enough that it makes the story memorable, but it's not really applicable to the modern day. And I think this urban legend is kind of fallen off because to replace it with something that is much more feasible for reality makes the story and less memorable. 

 AUTUMN 

 63:52 

 That actually makes sense. The idea of a hook as the hook. Which I feel kind of winds credence to the idea of Jake's theory, where you've got a bunch of older adults, like how do we keep our Sally from making out and getting herself knocked up? We need a hook for this story. And then some guys like, oh, how about a hook? I feel like maybe that that's what happened. 

 IVY 

 64:13 

Yeah, I mean, I think there is definitely some merit to that. I am amused by Jake's take on this story because I had never considered that before. I'm not entirely sure why, but yeah, I mean, that would make sense. Because the focus of this story in terms of the urban legend was never on the danger. So just being in a dark, secluded area, making you vulnerable to somebody who may sneak up on you, that wasn't ever really the main cautionary aspect of this tale. The main cautionary aspect of this tale did have those moral undertones of no sex outside of marriage. If you do those sorts of things, you're just asking for trouble. 

And I do think that might be another reason why this urban legend is starting to fade into obscurity somewhat, because we do live in a culture where there is more sexual autonomy and freedom. Obviously, there are groups like fundamentalist Christian groups and other religious groups that still exist and still frown upon or outright condemn sex outside of marriage. But overall, culturally, I feel like we've moved much further forward in terms of the sexual revolution where sex outside of marriage is now no longer culturally really a taboo topic. 

 AUTUMN 

 65:49 

That would make a lot of sense. It would also explain why these tales dropped off, because after the 50s, you got the 60s and the hippie generation and sexual freedom, and it just kind of rolled along societally from there. 

What makes me interested about this, though, is this story has been dying off, but we'd still heard of it. Now, I will say this though. Our mom was born in the late 40s, so this is a story our mom would have heard and so our parents would have perpetuated this onto us. So we would have had something like this. I'm actually going to turn to you here, Jake, because your parents are a little bit younger than ours were, so they wouldn't necessarily heard this growing up. Is the Hook Man story something you have from your childhood? 

 JAKE 

 66:04 

 I honestly don't have any memory of it. Any story even remotely similar to this. It might have been just because where we were living. But this was a new one for me. I hadn't quite heard this one before.

 AUTUMN 

 66:15 

Interesting. So Jake is ten years younger than me and his parents were born, I want to say, in the 60s. And so when they would have been coming of age in the 70s, their parents may not have been telling this to them, and therefore it wouldn't have been perpetuated down to the next generation. So maybe this is just something that's going to disappear.

 IVY 

 66:32 

Maybe. I mean, honestly, as much as I love urban legends, this is one that I don't really see as being necessary to retell. If you want to find some way to have a cautionary tale about the dangers of making yourself vulnerable to the dark side of humanity in a secluded area, that's fine. That is an important message for people to be given, but I don't think we need this particular story to tell. That, and the cautionary tale that came with this story of avoiding premarital or extramarital sex. 

I'm not religious. I don't have an issue with sex outside of marriage. I'm all for sexual freedom. So and I think culturally and generationally, more and more people are viewing it that way. Like everybody should be minding their own business when it comes to other people's sex lives. And so I would be totally fine with seeing this urban legend fall off into obscurity and be something that people largely forget. Because the underlying message of don't be promiscuous or bad things will happen. 

You'll die if you're promiscuous. I feel like that's just religious propaganda, to be perfectly honest. And if you're a religious listener, I'm sorry, but mean, that's just how I feel about. I don't feel like anybody else's sex life is any of my business, unless they are being directly abusive to another person. If you have a couple of consenting adults, it's none of my business what those folks do, and I don't think it should be anybody else's business with any of those folks who do. It should be between them and God. If you are a religious person, if not, it's between those two people and nobody else.

 AUTUMN 

 68:01 

 Or 3 or 4. I mean, our sexual tastes have grown as we've gotten more freedom within that. What about you, Jake? Since you've never really heard this story before, do you think this one is worth retelling or perpetuating down to the next generations?

 JAKE 

 68:13 

 No, we can let this one go. As far as tale of safety, I think a couple of our other stories covered that far better than this one could. And like Ivy said, I mean, what two people or more do consenting with themselves - I mean, I'm not in that relationship, so go have fun. You do you or them or whoever you want to do. There's just no lessons that need to be perpetuated here that hasn’t been or could be done in a better way. 

 AUTUMN 

 68:40 

 Okay. I could see that. You know, I think I'm going to disagree with you both a little bit. Not necessarily that we need to retell this as a cautionary tale. But I do feel like this is a cultural relic and something that is very indicative of that 1950s mentality for so many reasons. The sexual restrictive ness. That you don't want to be different and everything should be normal. Like, I feel like this story does capture so much of that 1950s mentality. And I am a big one for, I guess, cross-generational understanding. Getting where that generation came from, in part so that we don't go back there. 

Because I do feel, like I've said, a lot of this stuff is outdated, and I want these cautionary tale ideas to stay outdated. And so in my mind, I'm like, sure, let's keep retelling this so we can laugh about it and not move back to these restrictive areas. Because I will say, with all the abortion laws that have changed recently, I am a little bit scared that we're going to revert back to 1950s America. And while that might have been great for a very specific set of people, for a lot of other people, that was not a good time. 

 IVY 

 69:45 

 Yeah. And now that you say that, I completely agree with that, I do see the merit of keeping this story around as a talking point of a point in history that we should not go back to. It was inherently problematic. I mean, it's the same basic idea of you don't just get to pretend like racism didn't happen, that people didn't get lynched, that people's land wasn't taken away from them based on the color of their skin, that people were persecuted and enslaved. You don't get to just ignore that because it no longer fits with the values of today. We still have to confront that and acknowledge it, see it for how problematic it was, and really deal with that and be better moving forward. But you can't just ignore what no longer fits and what you feel shame about. So I do see the point after you said that I do see the merit in keeping this story around as, like you said, a cultural relic to remind us of what we should not be focusing on. The values that weren't actually helpful, that did more damage than they did good.

 AUTUMN 

 70:40 

Excellent. I've converted Ivy. So have I converted you, Jacob, into keeping the story as a cultural relic? 

 JAKE 

 70:47 

 Yes and no. I feel like, yes, you're right, we should keep it. But also any of these other stories, for the most part, I think is told on their own. You sit down, spooky campfire vibes, and you tell the story. But I feel like this story needs to be told for that reason with something. As a conversation. You tell this story, but then you talk about it, you expand upon the story. And this is why this story was here. You don't just tell the story. 

AUTUMN

 71:16 

 So I could kind of see that. More as a history lesson or something we teach in history class, not as a campfire tale. So I could get that.

Now when we talk about history, this next urban legend has a lot of history behind it. This one has been around, I would almost say, for centuries. Jake, do you want to go ahead and regale us with this tale? 

 JAKE 

 71:38 

 A young couple decides to go camping. They find the perfect spot off an old dirt path in the woods and set up their campsite. They love the location, the silence, and most of all, the solitude. Based on what they've seen and heard. There's not another person for miles. 

As the day wears on, they both start thinking about dinner and decide to go in search of firewood together. They don't have to go far. There's downed kindling and branches right at the edge of their campsite. They talk as they work, never moving more than a few yards from one another. 

The woman asks her partner a question, only to be answered with silence. She asks again, assuming she hadn't heard her still silence. Irritated now, she turns to her to ask a third time, but when she looks up, her partner is gone. She turns around and circles, frantically calling her partner's name. She looks as far as she can into the thick woods on either side, but there's no sign of her anywhere. Just a small pile of wood on the ground where she'd last been standing. 

To this day, she's never been found. The police were, of course, called. Searches were made. Evidence sought. But there was nothing to find. No evidence, no body, no trail. It's as though she just disappeared into thin air. 

 AUTUMN 

 72:55 

 So, of course, this is a simple retelling and the details are kind of vague with this, but I feel like in a lot of these retellings, the details are fairly vague. But I've read this - I remember actually reading this in a book for kids about some family in the early 1900s, in the late 1800s, where they were out with the father doing something in the field, and they saw the father disappeared directly in front of their eyes. And then I’ve also heard of this, almost in reference to Ireland and the fairies courting you into the marsh and things like that, where somebody's going, and then they just disappear out of thin air. So I feel like this particular urban legend has a whole lot of history. 

Is there actually any verifiable cases like this? I know people disappear every day, but is there anything of this idea where it's almost impossible they could have disappeared? Somebody was directly looking at them or something like that?

 IVY 

 73:44 

 I mean, yes and no. There are lots of cases of odd disappearances and unexplained disappearances in lots of different contexts. If you want to look at big cases, you can look at the Mary Celeste ghost ship where, yeah, the lifeboat that was gone, but like literally it was like the entire crew just fucking disappeared out of thin air. And they never found any sign of those folks.  There are all sorts of stories, like the missing 411 series of books and documentaries. A lot of those stories are very odd and unexplained. 

The ones that I'm going to focus on for this episode - we're going to talk just real briefly about the stories that are associated with Bennington Triangle. This is a series of stories, I guess. An area that has a lot of pop culture popularity, a lot of people are familiar with this, that's where we're going to focus on this one. So we had a series of disappearances in the Bennington Triangle, many of them where no evidence, no bodies, no anything was found. 

First, we have in 1945, Middie Rivers goes missing on a hunting trip with four other hunters. He separated from the group, as you tend to do on hunting trips, and he was supposed to be back at camp at a certain time. He never returned. No evidence of him was ever found, except for one lone rifle cartridge that was found in a stream. Other than that, no sign of him has ever been found. 

The next one we have, Paula Weldon, disappeared in 1946, and this is the one that's probably out of all of these stories, one of the closest ones to disappearing into thin air because Paula Weldon, this 18-year-old girl, she went hiking in the area, she passed by an elderly couple. They were going the same direction. She got ahead of them and there were only about 100 yards behind her. She turned a corner in the trail, and by the time they turned that same corner, she was completely gone. She was reported missing. They did an extensive search. They never found anything to indicate what happened to her, even though that couple was only 100 yards behind her. That's not that far. She just disappeared. 

Then we had in 1950 and eight year old named Paul Jepson. Now with this one, not a total surprise, I guess. His mother left him unattended inside a truck for about an hour while she went to go feed some pigs. When she came back, he was gone. But after an extensive search, they never found anything of him at all. 

This next one, and this is one of the most popular ones that you hear circulated about this area, and it is one of the most interesting because it really is like this guy kind of disappeared into thin air. Not impossible, but real difficult to pin down an explanation. So James Tedford, in 1949, he was a military vet. He was taking a bus to visit some relatives and he disappeared from the bus. Nobody remembers him getting off at any point. And at the end of the line, he was just gone. All of his belongings were still on the bus. Nobody really recalls a period of time where he would have had an opportunity to get off the bus. That's not to say it's impossible. Maybe he just kind of slipped through the cracks, but everybody that was on that bus, nobody recalls him leaving the bus. And at the end of the line, only his belongings were still there. That's pretty fucking creepy. The idea that somebody could just disappear from a bus full of people and nobody notice. 

So there are plenty of stories in the real world, verifiable, of people going missing in situations where it's like, man, they were just there. I just saw them and now they're gone and there's no sign of them whatsoever. I mean, it could be any number of things that could happen. It doesn't necessarily mean that they fell through a portal into another dimension or something like that. They could have been attacked by wildlife. Or one of the theories in the 411 series is that some of these people, they went missing in a boulder field, maybe a rock fell and either crushed them or left them in an area where they just had no access to get out, and nobody could find them. But there's a lot of different possibilities. 

But the idea that some people might just disappear is a concept that humans have been confronting for at least as long as humans have been keeping documentation. Like there's lots of instances of people just dropping off the map. People disappear every day. Sometimes we find explanations, sometimes we find evidence, sometimes we find bodies, sometimes we find absolutely nothing at all. And it remains unexplained forever. 

 AUTUMN 

 78:07 

 I could definitely see the truth behind this with people just disappearing. The idea of nobody was really watching them specifically. It wasn't right in front of their eyes or anything like that. I could see that because we do still have missing people. And I think there's, you know, all the information out there about the Indigenous women that are just gone and nobody fucking knows where they are. And there's not enough media attention about this. And they're just like, where the fuck did all these women go? 

So this still happens even today. It just doesn't happen when people, like are watching you, because it's kind of my thing. Like I'm like, yeah, sure, that's a reality. People do disappear, people get kidnapped, they fall off of cliffs. Maybe they get Acme Looney Tunes squished by a boulder, and we never find their body. Possible. But right in front of your eyes. Is that even possible? What do you think, Jake? 

 JAKE 

 78:56 

I’m less concerned about these actual events that happened as how they happened and what happens after. Because that person existed in this space and time before that. So what happened? If they did disappear, they had to go somewhere. They can't just dematerialize into nothing. So it's how does this happen and what happens after? Because yeah, like you said, people disappear all the time. But for me it's I'm curious about how it happens.

 AUTUMN 

 79:24 

 Because with the ones where the stories are, I was literally looking at the person, and it's just like Jake said, like they just dematerialized -  you get then like, was it a UFO abduction? Or if you're talking more like the old school Ireland stories, did they step into a fairy portal and go into a literal different realm? What are your thoughts on that? That someone could literally disappear in front of your eyes? 

 IVY 

 79:46 

 I am somebody who always suspends disbelief. I don't feel like fully buy into a lot of different ideas. Like I don't fully buy into the idea that cryptids are absolutely real, but I also don't discredit the idea that they could be. And I feel the same way with things into thin air disappearances. I think it's definitely possible. I don't know where they go. I don't know what happens. I know there's lots of different possibilities. I'm not going to completely discount the idea that somebody could just disappear into thin air. Maybe that could happen. 

Like there's a kind of on the flip side of this story, there's a couple of other stories as far as verifying the validity of them is somewhat more difficult. But there's a couple of other stories that kind of gives this idea of like, what happens to somebody who just drops into a world that's unfamiliar to them. I've heard a story before about a woman who woke up in this world that was not the one that she went to sleep in. It was a different job. She had a different boyfriend. She was living in a different apartment. She had no idea how she got there. She didn't understand what was going on with her life, because where she woke up was not where she remembered falling asleep. 

Could that be explained by a variety of things? Maybe she had some sort of mental health problem, or had a head injury in the night that caused her to get her brain scrambled? I don't know, maybe.

There was also, and I cannot remember - I'll have to look it up and put it on the resources page. But there was also this story of a man that was traveling, and he got held up in customs because they did not recognize the country that his passport came from. But he had records of him traveling to all of these different countries and getting through those countries, getting through customs with this passport that came from a country that seemingly did not fucking exist. They put him up in a hotel, I think, for the night. And when they went back to retrieve from the next morning, dude was just gone, like he'd never been there at all. I'll have to try to figure out this story and put it on my resources page. I apologize for not having it now, but I didn't even think I was going to use that as an example. 

But in answer to Jake's kind of questioning, okay, but what happens to them and what happens after? I don't know if those stories are real, if there actually is something to it. Maybe some of these people who disappear into thin air, maybe they do end up in a parallel dimension. Who knows? Like, to me, I always suspend disbelief and the idea that anything could happen. I kind of leave myself open for the possibility that, yeah, anything could happen. 

I mean, honestly, of all the urban legends that were covering today, this one terrifies me the most because Kelvin and I do go out into the middle of the fucking woods on a regular basis, and I am always scared that I'm going to lose sight of him. If we're hiking, and he gets a little bit ahead of me and I lose sight of him for a few seconds, I get nervous. If we're at our campsite and it's already dark and we're about to go to bed, but he wanders off into the woods to go to the bathroom one more time, I am always scared he's not going to come back. 

The idea of this to me, seem so plausible, whether it has supernatural reasoning for or whether it is just the unknowns of being in the wilderness and all the vulnerability that comes with that. I am always terrified that Kelvin and I are going to go out into some beautiful, desolate area that we just absolutely love, only for me to end up there alone and him not be there anymore. Not being able to find him and never find him again. Like of all the stories, this one actually terrifies me the most because this is the one that's closest to home for me. Because I do believe it's possible. People do go missing all the time, and there's enough stories on the flip side of these of like, this person disappeared from this reality. There's enough stories of people seemingly appearing into another reality that is not the one they were familiar with. I feel like it's possible. 

 AUTUMN 

 83:30 

 What's really, really weird to me is I don't think I've ever heard any sort of urban legend idea about somebody just appearing. Which to me - maybe I'm just an egocentric person -like, that's more terrifying. Like, what if I wake up and the universe I'm used to isn't the right one. But that kind of makes me wonder, like, why do we get this side of it? Why do we keep telling each other about these people that disappear? Why is this the piece of mythology that's locked in our culture and our cultural subconscious? Why aren't we talking more about the people that randomly appear? 

 JAKE 

 84:02 

 I think the disappearances definitely get focused on more, because if I put a pair of scissors in your junk drawer, how long is it going to take you to notice that? Because you weren't looking for something. But as soon as your pair of scissors goes missing. Well, you're going to notice right away because it was there, you needed it. But I would say more because we noticed the absence of things or people. We don't typically notice when something else is there that shouldn't be, or someone else is there that shouldn't be. They'd just be another person in the crowd. And so I think that's why the disappearances get talked a lot more. 

 AUTUMN 

 84:38 

I mean, I would add to that, I think that is definitely part of it. I think that was very true, that a lot of times we notice the absence of something more, just the presence of something in that extends unto the lack or negative experience that people remember negative experiences when their needs weren't met or when they had a lack of something. So I definitely think that's a contributing factor. 

But I also feel like the reason why the disappearances get focused on so much is because it ties into this bigger, more complex, difficult human experience of loss and the unknown. It would be just as painful to have someone that you care about disappear into thin air as it is to experience the loss that comes with their death. And in some ways, it may actually be worse. If you're a true crime junkie like I am, you will have heard lots of loved ones of missing people describe how it is so much worse that they don't have answers, that they don't know where their loved one is. Because there's all of these unknowns you don't know. 

Maybe they're still alive somewhere, or maybe they're in a bad situation, and there's nothing that you can do to help them. Because things like that also do happen. And so because there are stories with these people who go missing and do eventually reappear, and they have these horrible stories of abuse from those years that they were gone. To have somebody that you love just disappear and you not know where they're at, I think that's so much more terrifying in some ways than if you have to confront their death. I think that's a big part of why people talk about the disappearance stories, but they don't really talk about the stories of these people who are just, like, magically appear in a different reality. 

And by the way, the story I mentioned earlier was The Man from Torrid. Torrid was a country that didn't exist. And the Japanese were very, very confused about how he had done so much traveling with passport from a country that was not real. 

But when somebody just disappears and it's this huge unknown, you don't even know what kind of grieving you should be doing. And I think that is terrifying, not only to the person who loses a loved one in a disappearance, but it is also terrifying to everybody that has people that they hold close. Because if it happened to that guy down the street that they lose somebody that they love and then no answers, no idea where they're at. It could happen to me too. 

AUTUMN 

 87:10 

So then it also does make me curious, like, why are we telling this story? Because it doesn't feel like a cautionary tale to me, because it could be on a bus, or in the middle of a field, or flying on a plane or wherever, and you just disappear. So there's nothing I could avoid doing. So then why are we telling these stories? Is it a way to grapple with the unknown, to stare into the void? 

IVY

 87:10 

Yeah,  I think that's definitely a big part of it. I think that's the main reason for it, because obviously, not all urban legends, not all myths, are going to revolve around cautionary tales. A lot of them do. But myths and storytelling is also a way for us to grapple complex and very difficult or painful things that are somewhat hard to talk about. Culturally speaking, in many parts of the world, death is something that is kind of a taboo topic because it is painful, and grief and loss are very heavy, overwhelming, complex things to deal with. It's not just like one emotion that you can learn to process efficiently with coping skills. It is this big, messy, ambiguous thing when you're experiencing grief and loss. And when you have these disappearances and the unknown, that adds an additional layer to this big scary monster that is grief. 

But when you can tell it as a story that happened to somebody else, that there is nothing like specifically real to correlate it to, when it's just part of the mythos, it gives us the ability to be somewhat emotionally separated from it enough that we can talk about it in a way that doesn't feel quite so taboo, and doesn't feel quite so painful, because we can get just enough distance from it. 

I mean, honestly, that is part of the overarching reason why a lot of horror stories and scary stories are also so popular in general, because they do have to deal with lots of painful, difficult, scary, violent things that happen. And we can explore those concepts from a somewhat safe distance, because it's only a story. And I think that's some of what's going on here. 

 AUTUMN 

 88:46 

Would you agree with that, Jake? Do you think that's the main reason we're telling this disappearing into the ether sort of stories? 

 JAKE 

 88:51 

I would say that's why we're telling stories and why they need to be continually told. Because I don't think that grief gets talked about enough. Not that anybody really wants to talk about grief because it is a painful subject. But there's a lot that could be done to help people prepare or to come to terms. And I think it's one of those things that, because it's a taboo, just doesn't get talked about when maybe it should be. Maybe we should just all be there for each other a little bit more, instead of just letting everybody figure it out on their own. I feel like stories like this help with that. 

 IVY 

 89:24 

 So it also sounds like you feel like this story is worth retelling and something we should keep in, even if it's not about a specific appearance and it feels supernatural, you still feel like this is a good urban legend that's going to assist our culture in some way. 

 JAKE 

 89:38 

I do, I do. I think it's good and it should be kept around. 

 AUTUMN 

 89:42 

 Ivy, do you think it's worth retelling? 

 IVY 

 89:44 

 Yeah, I mean, I do. I think it is important for us to have ways that we can talk about these big difficult, complex experiences that all people will experience at some point. We all will experience loss of some kind at some point. And it is somewhat taboo to talk about this stuff. So it is helpful to have stories that we can have some distance from that are conversation starters to break the ice, to talk about those difficult things. 

 AUTUMN 

 90:08 

 So I would say, you know, based on what we talked about, is the story worth retelling? My answer to that would be, I don't think we cannot retell it. If we are talking about grappling with these underlying concepts of  death and grief and what comes after, we do need some way to do this. And stories and analogies are a way to handle some of these bigger concepts that we don't fully understand and that are a little too much weight sometimes for our psyches to carry. 

All right. So let's go ahead and move into our next urban legend on the list. And this is the Man Upstairs. 

 JAKE 

 90:42 

 One evening, a young woman's babysitting two small children. Their parents won't be home until very late, so she tucks them in and goes downstairs to work on a paper that's due soon. The phone rings and she answers it, expecting it to be one of the children's parents. But it's not. 

Instead, an unfamiliar, eerily calm voice asks, “have you checked on the children?” Assuming it's a stupid prank call? She hangs up without responding, but a few minutes later, the phone rings again, and before she can say a word, the voice asks again, “have you checked on the children? “Annoyed, she hangs up again, but the pattern repeats a third time. The voice on the other end sounds a little amused. “Have you checked the children yet?”

This time, as frightened as she is angry, she slams the phone down and then picks it back up immediately to call the police. They tell her that they'll trace the call if it happens again. Sure enough, a few minutes later, the phone rings again and this time in a taunting tone. The voice asks, “why won't you check on them? Isn't that your job? To make sure they're all safe and sound in their beds? Wouldn't their parents be disappointed?” The voice begins to laugh and she slams the phone down again. With shaking hands, she snatches the phone back up and calls the police. 

The dispatcher warns her to quickly, quietly and calmly as possible go outside because the calls are coming from inside the house. The police arrive moments later and dash into the house, only to find that the children are already dead in their beds. They subdue the man who is covered in blood but chillingly calm. He says nothing to the girl as he's escorted past her into a police cruiser, only glances up at her and smiles. 

AUTUMN

 92:34 

 Interesting. This story is especially interesting to me because I feel like all of the urban legends up to this point, for the most part, have been the threat of what could happen, the hint of some danger happening. But with this particular story, there's actually death and murder and of children. And a bloody covered suspect. Which then makes me question like, was this something that happened? Ivy or our little crime expert? Do we have any reality basis for this concept? 

IVY

I will admit I have not done enough research on this one to know for a fact if there were children that were killed while a babysitter is in the house, I would be honestly surprised if that hadn't ever happened. What I do know is that the story that is considered to be the origin for this urban legend - there was an actual unsolved murder that happened in 1950 to a young woman named Janet Chrisman. She was babysitting for a small child. While she was babysitting, she was raped and strangled to death with the electrical cord for an iron. She did attempt to call the police during the attack. She managed to scream and to beg for them to come quickly, but the call was too short and they were not able to trace the call, so they didn't know where she was at. The body of the girl was discovered by the parents. Later, when they came home, the child in the house was unharmed. He managed to sleep through the entire ordeal. 

This is considered to be from everything that I have gathered in my research, the origin story for this urban legend, although obviously it is different from the urban legend in the sense that there was, as far as we know, no foreshadowing phone calls. And it was not the children that were harmed, it was the babysitter that was killed. Like I said, they would be kind of surprising to me if there had never in the history of humans been some young girl watching small children for their parents and then the children being murdered, potentially the babysitter as well. But I don't have anything specifically to draw a direct correlation between this story fitting exactly to any story that has happened in real life.

 AUTUMN 

 94:41 

 If that is the basis of this story, I feel like that is one convoluted game of telephone where the story kept getting retold and mashed and mixed until the end result is nothing like it. The big thing with me, with this story, when I hear this retelling and I've heard various retellings, but a lot of them have this idea of like the calls coming from in the house and then the idea of the police tracing it. My brain that picks on details is I'm like, do they have multiple phone lines? Because a lot of this retelling is before cell phones. So it's like, who just had two phone lines in their house so that they could be calling? Because you can't just pick up two landlines and have the other one ring. It doesn't work that way. And so that part is like, really? I don't know about that. That seems kind of fake. 

And the other part is like, oh yeah, we'll trace the call for you. Maybe the fake crime shows I've been watching are very realistic, but I didn't think tracing a call was that simple. Maybe it is. But there's these little things in there. Just something I don't know. I'm less scared of this. And now just more suspicious of you trying to lie to me for some reason. 

 IVY 

 95:45 

Yeah. I mean, my brain definitely picks up on those details too. I don't think it's possible, especially for when this story originated, I don't think it's possible for it to have actually played out that way. If there is a true crime story where the babysitter and the children were killed, like, I could believe that. But the plausibility of this complicated game of telephone that also is stuck in my craw a little bit. 

It's like there's just no way this could have played out like that in the era this urban legend was born. Like even in era this urban legend became really popular when they made the movie. I think it's called When a Stranger Calls or something like that. Even when that movie came out, I don't think the story could have played out in the way that the urban legend suggests.  Even that it was too far back in time. 

AUTUMN 

 96:57 

Interestingly, though, to me, like this whole the phone call is coming from inside the house. I've also heard of that of just being like a trope and something that's used again and again in horror movies. And so for me, that's the big key piece of this particular urban legend is the call is coming from in the house. And so then with that, I go back to, let's just set aside reality and pretend it could come from in the house, and you just happen to have two landlines or  whatever, but what is the point of this? Like, why are we telling each other this story? 

 IVY 

 97:02 

 I think the point of the idea of the call is coming from inside the house, like, I think it's intended to add that additional scare factor. You think you're safe because you're inside and you have the doors locked, but you're still vulnerable. And that aspect of it is actually kind of realistic. 

There is another true crime story. Way back in the day, a lot of people who were into true crime would probably be familiar with this story. The Axe House murders. An entire family, and a couple of young children that were friends of the family were murdered one night while they slept in their beds. And one of the theories is that the murderer who killed them was hiding in the house for a good portion of the day, and only came out after everybody had gone to bed and committed the crimes. 

So I think that is in some sense, even though it sounds somewhat ridiculous, a call is coming from inside the house. I think in some ways it still is a cautionary tale. But it is relevant to real experiences because there have been situations of people being murdered in their own homes where they think that they're safe by people who were stowing away in their homes. And the Axe house murders are not the only situation of that. To a certain degree, some of that stuff has even kind of continued on into modern day. I know there's been at least a couple of cases where somebody was hiding out in a house and killed the residents. But there have also been plenty of cases of people who were just stolen away in somebody's house, sometimes for months at a time, and nobody knows that they're there. 

So I think the cautionary tale aspect of least one of them is that never take your safety for granted just because you're inside and the doors are locked because you don't know what could be hiding upstairs. 

 JAKE 

 98:44 

 Yeah, I definitely - I'm a very big fan of this as a cautionary tale. When I was younger, somewhere between 8-12, I saw a movie and I can't find it anymore. But there was a couple going to sleep and on the ceiling, written in probably blood because it was a horror movie, was the sentence Look under the bed or don't look under the bed. I forget how it was worded. And there was somebody hiding under there and they all got viciously killed. Of course, I saw that when I was pretty young, so ever since then, any house I'm in that I have to stay in, I check everything. Like I want to make sure that I'm the only person in here, or that I know who's in here. Because stuff like this happens. For me, maybe I'm overly paranoid, but I like to be on the safe side, so I recommend this one as a cautionary tale. 

 AUTUMN 

 99:29 

 All right. I can see that as a cautionary tale. Because I did not hear this story when I was younger. Actually, when I heard this cautionary tale, I was 18, living on my own, and I came home. It was like 10:00 at night, had just gotten off work, and I was calling my friend and I was like, it's so weird, I'm in my apartment, but I swear some things are moved around that I didn't leave there. And she's like, oh my God, what if somebody broke in and they're still there? 

And that was the first time I had this concept. And so with my friend on the phone at 10:00 at night, I had my little dinky Dollar Tree steak knife as I went and checked through my entire house. And that's what I do when I live alone now is I check everywhere. But I can see that as a cautionary tale. 

Are we really telling this as a cautionary tale, though? The idea of a killer in the back seat seems cautionary because like, oh my God, what could happen? But this one seems more just a little bit sociopathic. I want to fuck with your feelings of safety because it's not only what could happen. It's like, ha ha ha, you could be murdered any second. Like, it seems a little twisted that way to me. 

 IVY 

 100:33 

Yeah, I mean, it is. And I think that's supposed to be a commentary on the dark side of humanity in some ways, because there have been serial killers and killers in general who have had contact with their victims before they killed them because their intention is to taunt them. Or there's been killers who murdered somebody, and then they reach out and contact the family to taunt them. And so while this is not a cautionary tale aspect of it, because you can't control that, I think, it is supposed to be a warning of just how dark humans can be. You know, the person hiding out in your house may not just be a human, it could be a real monster. So I think that's part of it. 

I think the other part of this story, too, is that often, almost every time this story, the variations of the story, is that somebody who's babysitting and I think this is supposed to be also a warning to young people for babysitting. The gravity of responsibility that you have when you're caring for small children. But I never babysat anybody and so this story wasn't really relatable to me in that sense. But for a lot of young folks, they do babysit as a way to make some extra money. And when you do a lot of babysitting, you can forget how much responsibility you actually have on your shoulders. And I think that was also supposed to be part of this cautionary tale is it's not just the monster upstairs, the dark side of human nature. It is also supposed to be a warning. If you are a young person and you are taking on the responsibility of people who are even younger than you, and that is a huge responsibility that you are taking on, you should not be taking for granted. Which is another reason why this story has continued to perpetuate, because it is supposed to be a warning to younger people about the gravity of some responsibilities, and that it's not just something that you should take lightly.

AUTUMN

 102:10 

 I don't know. If I had heard this and I was babysitting, I wouldn't see this as a warning to be more cautious when babysitting. I would see this as a warning to not fucking babysit. Because if there's a murderer in the house going to kill the kids, what am I, a 16 year old, 104 pound girl going to do against this armed crazy monster? So in my mind I would just interpret as that if you babysit, people will murder the children and you will have to decide whether or not you're okay living the rest of your life with the guilt of that murder,  or if you also want to get murdered. In which case I'm just not going to babysit the kids. Just saying.

 IVY 

 102:52 

No, I'm on board with you. I never wanted to babysit children. I don't want to have children of my own, because it is a huge responsibility that I do not feel equipped for, even as a full grown adult. 

 AUTUMN 

 103:02 

So then I guess it comes down to is this story worth retelling? Should we keep this in our cultural vernacular? 

 IVY 

 103:09 

 Yes and no. I feel like maybe I am not necessarily the right person to answer this question for the story as it is told specifically because I don't relate to the babysitter aspect. I do relate to the cautionary aspect of you should always check your fucking house, man. I don't even want to ever live in a big house because there's too many unknowns in a big house. I like our little one bedroom apartment because very quickly I can figure out if there's somebody here, but in a big house going around checking all those rooms, just like that, heightened anxiety of maybe there's somebody on the other side of that door. Like heightened anxiety can last for a long time when you go through the house. 

So I do agree with passing on the story of don't necessarily always feel safe and privacy of your own home because you don't know if you're alone, or you don't know if somebody's going to break in, if they're hiding out in your house, if they've been squatting in your house for a while and you don't even know. These are real things that happen on a semi-regular basis. And so I think as a cautionary tale for that, we should be aware of that. 

I think also, we should be aware of the cautionary aspect of humans can be really fucking dirt. We want to be able to trust people. We want to believe the best of people, and that all people are inherently good on some level. But the truth of the matter is there are some people just aren't. There are some people who are truly evil, some people who are truly garbage human beings. And I think we need to not hyper focus on that all the time, but be aware of that fact when we're walking through the world. While we would love to believe that all people are inherently good, there are some people for whom that is not the case. 

The babysitting aspect of it. I feel like that makes the story less universally applicable and relatable. So to me, that aspect of it could be removed. But I don't know if people who have done a lot of babysitting would agree with that. 

 JAKE 

 104:54 

I have not done a lot of babysitting either, but I think that could definitely be taken out of there. But like you said, it's still a good, good cautionary tale to check your house, check your living space wherever you're at. But also to not get complacent once you've checked it. Because she was in this story, the babysitter was in the house for quite a while, and only after she had been in the house after she may or may not have checked it, did the calls come in and did this start happening. So even once you're in a space, continue to maintain some sort of vigilance. 

 AUTUMN 

 105:29 

 For whatever reason that reminds me of Mad Eye Moody. Like Hyper Vigilance!

JAKE 

Constant vigilance!

AUTUMN 

 105:29 

Constant vigilance. That's what it is. Hyper vigilance is PTSD. Sorry, that's not Harry Potter.

 JAKE 

 105:36 

Yeah, don't get those confused.

 AUTUMN 

 105:38 

I think they're kind of the same thing. I kind of get this though, and I do think it's a little twisted because it does lead to that, that death and that murder and that blood. But I kind of wonder if that's unfortunately a necessity in our society, because there is more horror, and we're always looking to push the boundary of the violence we see. So we may have had to up the scary factor of some of these urban legends for them to still be applicable. 

All right. So let's go ahead and listen to the very last story on our list. And that is The Organ Thief. 

 JAKE 

 106:14 

 A man is traveling to a foreign country on business. After a long day of work, he goes to a local bar near his hotel to throw back a couple of beers and relax. While he sits at the bar, a beautiful woman approaches him and asks to sit with him. 

At first, he thinks she only wants him to buy her a drink, but to the contrary, she buys one for him. They begin to talk, laugh, dance and have a great time together. He's excited at the idea that this beautiful woman is genuinely interested in him. As the night goes on. They get increasingly more intimate until she invites him back to the hotel she's staying at. 

He drunkenly stumbles along, leaning into her a bit as they walk to her room. He'd been enjoying himself so much that he didn't realize how much he had to drink. He flops down on the bed and his head starts to spin as everything goes dark. 

When he wakes up, he's alone, cold, and in tremendous pain. He realizes he's lying in a bathtub full of ice, and there's a long, angry looking incision in his abdomen. A phone sits on the side of the tub with the note under it. With shaky hands. He picks up the note and reads it. We've taken your kidney. When you wake, call an ambulance immediately or you will likely die. 

 AUTUMN 

 107:36 

 So I will admit, like I have heard tons of reiterations of this. I've seen this in a lot of the fake crime. I've seen it as a concept in novels, television shows, movies. Ivy, do you know if there is ever actually been a documented reported case of this? Is this a real thing that people are drugging you and literally stealing your kidney? 

 IVY 

 107:59 

 If it is happening, I have not found any actual cases of organs being involuntarily removed from people who have been drugged or anything like that. I won't say that it's impossible because I don't know, I could potentially see that happening. From my understanding, I've never been on the dark web, but from my understanding, you can get anything on the dark web, including contraband or events and where they get those from. Who knows? 

The closest thing that I have been able to find that is verifiable, that comes anywhere close to this and is honestly incredibly fucking tragic, is that there are people in some poorer countries that are very impoverished, and in order to try to get money for medical treatment for an ailing relative, or to try to better their circumstances in life, or to try to send their kids to school or whatever, they will sell organs on the black market in order to try to just improve their circumstances or get money for something that they need. How often this happens, I don't know, but from my understanding, that is something that does happen in some impoverished places, which is incredibly tragic.

But it is definitely not the same thing as a well-off businessman being drugged in a bar and taken back to a hotel so they can steal his organs. It's not the same thing by a long shot. Like I could see how this urban legend sprung up and why it sounds plausible, but to my understanding, from everything that I've looked at, I have not found any actual cases that tied directly to this idea. 

 AUTUMN 

 109:33 

 You know, you say that, and it's kind of scary to me because I've actually seen an increasing amount of memes and jokes on my Facebook feed about this is how much you could sell your kidney for. If you're having trouble making rent this month, consider giving up your lung or her hurt. And it's a little scary that we're already starting to joke about this, because what if that starts becoming a reality for the rest of us during inflation.  

As to people actually stealing your organs, I feel like it could be a thing. To me that seems very viable. Do you think it's viable? Have you ever even heard of anything in real life like this? 

 JAKE 

 110:07 

 Not anything that I could put on paper, but I mean, I've heard the stories just like anyone else. I mean, I definitely see this as something possible. But for me personally, I don't like it on a couple of reasons. One, because, well, they're my organs and I want them to stay in my body. 

But two, let's say I was in that position and I'm at the bar trying to find somebody to steal their organs. I kind of want to know whose organs I'm stealing. Does this person have a good medical history? Like, I want the information on these organs. I need some paper, some documents. I don't want just anybody's organs. I want some good quality organ. Like, if I'm going through the trouble, it better be worth it.

 AUTUMN 

 110:42 

I could kind of see that, but it's the same point, the organ’s not for you. You're not stealing this kidney for you. I mean, as far as I know, these people are usually selling them, like Ivy said, on the dark web, in which case, you don't really care if your merchandise is shoddy. And what are they going to do? Come back and be like, this stolen car has a bad transmission?  So I don't know on that one. 

 JAKE 

 111:01 

Don't you need to at least line them up? Like this person had O blood and this person had A negative blood or something like does not matter. 

 AUTUMN 

 111:09 

Oh,  that could be like you need to test that.  That's if you're buying it for somebody specific. So I'm not - I don't know.

 JAKE 

 111:14 

Yeah. How does that work. 

 AUTUMN 

 111:16 

 There are some holes in this looking at that.

 IVY 

 111:18 

I’m really enjoying the exploration you guys are going on into this. My personal take is, is if it's your job to harvest the organs or to buy for the guy, you probably -  I feel like it's a chain of command.  Like you’re at the very bottom rung there. Your job is just to lure people. You don't give a fuck with their health. You don't care what their blood type is. That's like for the doctors, like the next guys up who are supposed to match it to the people that need the organ. So if I'm the one worrying, like I'm not paying attention to the quality of health of this person because I'm probably getting paid just to get the guy there so that they can take the organs. That's above my pay grade to care about his medical condition. 

And I suspect the doctors, they will – I mean they're obviously shady people. I'm sure they'll match up as they need to, but they also probably don't have a real big investment in whether or not these organs are quality. Because if they're shady enough to steal organs from a random person, they're shady enough to sell faulty organs to a person that needs them, regardless of the circumstances. So that's my take on that whole thing. 

 AUTUMN 

 112:23 

 You know, all this talk, one of the things that makes me curious is, is this a story told in other countries that have good health care options, or is this something we really hit on in third world countries and America where you would have to go to the black market if you ever wanted a transplant, because you sure as hell can't afford to do it in the hospital?  I would be curious about that. 

So whether this is reality or not, I do wonder why are we telling each other the story? Because as far as I know, I can't ever find anybody that's actually heard of a real case. So why are we perpetuating this? Why are we continuing this urban legend? 

IVY

I think part of the cautionary tale here is that if you are traveling to a foreign country, you should never completely let your guard down. Not that you're going to have your organs stolen necessarily. When you go to certain foreign countries, like some countries are known for being really bad for pickpocketing or for assaults or whatever. Like some countries are considered to be very dangerous. And so I think part of the cautionary tale here is that if you're going to be traveling to a foreign country, especially if you're traveling there on your own and you don't have any connections there, you should never let your guard down because something bad could happen to you.

And the other aspect of this cautionary tale is in all of the retellings, all the variations that I've heard of it, it is always a man being seduced by a woman back to some space where their organs are harvested. They get drugged by a woman. They get seduced by a woman. And so I feel like there's some aspect of a cautionary tale in that. 

And probably so sexism going on there, too, because it's one of the only ways in which a woman could be considered to be a predator, I guess. And for a man to be a victim  - who's the victim of a seductive temptress or the black widow type thing. Like that stereotype of women as predators are one of the only stereotypes that exist. So I feel like that's also part of the cautionary tale here, is to don't trust strange women if you're a man. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. I feel like that's part of it. 

Whether that's problematic, I would say that is probably problematic. But to some degree, I'm sure stuff like that does happen. Maybe not necessarily the organ theft, but being seduced by a beautiful woman and being tricked into a situation where you are now physically vulnerable to attack or armed robbery or theft of some kind. 

 AUTUMN 

 114:45 

 That is kind of an interesting take. We have to warn men that you're actually not that attractive. The girl just wants your kidney. Like, is that a warning you need, Jake?  Do I need to remind you you're not that handsome or that funny? Somebody probably just wants a lung. 

 JAKE 

 115:00 

 Oh, no, I know I'm that attractive and funny, so I'm good. You don’t have to worry about that. 

But to me, I think this story is just too general. There's no defense against it. I mean, except for don't get drunk with pretty ladies at a bar, but there's no defense against it. It could happen to anyone, anywhere, any country, any place. I mean, yeah, you said that there were certain countries that are known to be bad for certain things, but there's certain areas in the biggest town that we live next to that are known to be bad for certain things. So it could literally happen to anyone, anywhere. Think it's just too vague, too general. 

 AUTUMN 

 115:36 

 Maybe that's the point of it, though, is, you know, just like the other ones with your car or your house. Like, don't assume your safety here, but maybe it is the idea of constant vigilance. Never assume your safety. Don't trust anyone. But again, that seems like a very general concept. Do you agree? I mean, do you think there's any specificity to be found here? Do you think this is a worthwhile cautionary tale? 

 IVY 

 115:59 

 I mean, I think there is one running theme with urban legends in general is that a lot of them are generalized because they're supposed to be just generalized enough that it could happen to you, because if you get too specific with the stories, you can convince yourself, well, that could never happen to me. And that's part of the point of urban legends and why they stick around, and why they do act as cautionary tales is because they are generalized enough that you could put yourself in that position pretty easily, or put somebody that you know in that position pretty easily.

Whether this story in particular is worth passing along, I don't know. I mean, is it possible that this stuff is happening? It's entirely possible, I guess. I think the most unrealistic aspect of this story to me is that they just take his kidney and let him live. Because I have a feeling that if somebody is going to attack you in order to take one of your organs, they're probably just going to take as many of your organs as they can and like, kill you and try to get rid of the body. Because otherwise, like, why would they leave a witness alive?

To me, there's so many holes in this story and there are so many issues with it. And it's like, maybe, yeah, who knows, maybe some of this stuff does go on on the black market and the dark web. Like, I have no idea. I've never ventured into those areas, nor do I want to. I'm scared enough of humans. I don't think I need to add on to that. But this story to me does not carry as much weight as some of the other stories do. 

Like the killer in the back seat hits me a lot harder than The Organ Thief does. Maybe I would feel different about that if I had done a lot of world travel, but I've done none of it. I've never been to a country that is not primarily English speaking. I've never been to a country with a culture is so different that I feel completely like a fish out of water. If I did a lot of international travel, especially if I had had to travel to areas that were dangerous, maybe I would have a different take on it. But for me, it's just the average person who has not had the opportunities to do a whole lot of travel. This doesn't feel super real to me. It doesn't feel relatable to me. It doesn't feel like something that would likely happen to me. 

And I feel like in part, too, it's not just because I haven't done a whole lot of travel, in part for me as well, it's that I am a woman. And because I am a woman and I do feel like a walking target most of the time, I do my very best to avoid putting myself in situations where something like this could happen to me. I generally don't get drinks when I go to the bar. I generally don't put myself in a position where I’m unnecessarily vulnerable to other people in general. So for me, this is not particularly relatable because it's a cautionary tale that I feel does not apply to me because I already take precautions. 

I wouldn't get drunk at a bar with a stranger and go back to their hotel room because as a woman, I recognize that be a real stupid fucking thing to do. So maybe I'm not the best person to make a judgment on whether or not this story is worth retelling. But from my personal standpoint, I don't really see a whole lot of merit in spreading this story. 

AUTUMN 

I can agree with that. And I think you make an important point. If I'm going to invest the time and money in this operation, I'm getting everything out of it. I can, which includes both kidneys, any lungs, corneas, anything I can donate. I mean, business is business and I'm looking at the profits, returns and investment. 

So the other thing there, you make an important point. That as a woman, this story isn't as relevant to us because I think we're all already on guard, you know? Am I going to get roofied? Am I going to get raped or something going to happen to me and I get kidnapped? And so part of me wonders, is this an attempt to bring this kind of cautionary tale to men? 

But again, we're so scared of painting men as victims. That we don't want to say something like, a girl could roofie you and potentially take advantage of you or rape you. Because  a man can't get raped. Which I still feel like is some sort of mentality that a lot of us hold, which is not true. And so part of me wonders if this is a way of trying to get this cautionary tale across to men. But keeping it still too removed, almost, because we're so scared of culturally painting men as victims. 

 IVY 

 120:05 

Yeah, I'm curious about that too. And before we have Jake give his opinion as a man, for the sake of looking at it from just that perspective of men being victims, let's remove the organ thief part of this. It's not organs at all, but the idea that you could be - that a man could be seduced, tricked, drugged in some way, victimized by a woman. I'd like Jake's perspective on it as a man, but just remove the organ part of it, because that's the most unrealistic part of it. Whereas the rest of that story is actually quite realistic. 

 JAKE 

 120:34 

 Well, to me, the most unrealistic part of that story for me before I tap into the other part, is it just to me, it'd be easier to move the organs in the body, keep the guy alive, because then you don't have to worry about keeping them cold. You don't have to worry about anything else, so you don't have to worry about them going bad or anything. I don't know, just saying. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

But as far as being in danger or getting taken advantage of, oh, that's definitely possible for anyone. Nobody is immune to certain chemicals and drugs. It can literally happen to anyone. And no matter how big you are, how much muscle you have, size doesn't always matter. And there's nothing you can do about that. You can still get taken advantage of, you can still get attacked and subdued, put in a submission hold and roofied. 

AUTUMN

 121:20 

Do you think that's a fear that most men have, though? Because I know almost all women would never leave a drink unattended in a bar. But is that something you see other males doing? I mean, I feel like you're a little bit different because I feel like part of why I love you, because you are so hypervigilant and suspicious of all humans. But do you think other men, from what you've seen and observed, are they concerned about that to that level? 

 JAKE 

 121:42 

 I'm not going to generalize like that. I mean, there are some that definitely would be. There'd be some to be like, oh, I am, man, hear me roar. But there are a large percentage that are careful that are more observant. 

 AUTUMN 

 121:55 

 So then maybe in some ways this tale does have some merit, because, I mean, women have that reality of getting roofied and all that. But if we're not allowed to tell men you could get raped or you could get violated, because in essence, that's what removing a kidney is to some degree, it is a very graphic internal violation, which is what rape is. So maybe this is our society's way of trying to bring this warning to men in a way that is more plausible or acceptable to that toxic masculinity for those that hold it. So maybe this does have a little bit of merit.

But I don't know. I feel like, you know, when it comes down to is the story worth retelling? Is this worth keeping in our culture? Maybe for the idea of getting that warning to men because, like Jake said, size doesn't matter, gender doesn't matter. Anybody could potentially be a victim. I think we need to retell this. 

Because hearing Ivy and Jake and myself talk about this, the biggest lesson we learned from this is that we need to come up with a better business model for stealing people's organs, because that's all we're doing is critiquing how these people are running their business. So I feel like this is potentially worth retelling, but we've got to change some details here. Yes, men can be victims, and that is a cautionary tale we should provide, but I think we need a better way to do this. Ivy, do you think this is worth retelling? 

 IVY 

 123:15 

I think like you like certain aspects of it are important to perpetuate. Other aspects of it are not really all that feasible or palatable. I don't feel like the organ aspect of it is particularly helpful for the story. I feel like there would be other ways to tell this story that would act as a better cautionary tale for men. 

I know there are men who recognize that they could be victimized by anyone. I also know that there are men who don't think that women could be predators and victimize them, but a woman could be used to lure them into a situation where they are vulnerable to attack by another man or a group of men. So I feel like the necessity for the cautionary tale is there, regardless, that men do need to still be able to understand that. Regardless of what your genitalia says, you are still vulnerable because all people are vulnerable to something. 

 AUTUMN 

 124:09 

 And what about you, Jake? Do you think this is worth retelling as it is, or changing it a little bit? What are your thoughts?

 JAKE 

 124:14 

 As it is, I don't think so. We could definitely use another version of this. Or maybe a couple versions of this. Like we were saying, some men only see women as an accessory to stuff like this. And I think that's just sad because women are - you can do it yourself. I got faith in you. I mean, don't do it to me, obviously, but I have faith in your capabilities.

But I think that we could use probably a couple sets of these stories with different people, different situations. But I think this one's just too vague, too general, and doesn't really fit anything anymore. 

 IVY 

 124:50 

 I agree with that. 

All right. So those are all of the stories we are going to be telling today. We hope you enjoy the retelling of urban legends. We hope that it brought a little bit of spook to your Halloween. Now at the end of this, because a big part of what this was talking about was horror and the worthwhile-ness of this, and whether or not we should perpetuate it in our culture. And yes, these are urban legends. And so they're not like the Saw movies or Final Destination or any other horror movie, which I cannot think of because they don't watch horror, but they are a lighter version of it. 

And I will have to say at the end of this, I can see the reasons for some of these. I can get the cautionary tales, I can get the purpose of this within our mythology to help us deal with grief, or act as a warning to other people, or even as a historical component, to see where we came from and the reason we don't want to go back. 

I would say, though, that I'm still not on board for horror as it is mainstream with the amount of violence. So I'm okay with this, where it's simple, it's a campfire, and I'm not confronted with, you know, somebody's intestines right in front of my face as blood is splashed everywhere and they're screaming. But I can see the usefulness of urban legends and the amount of horror they contain. Jake, you're not a big guy on horror. So how do you feel about these urban legends after today's discussion? 

 JAKE 

 126:07 

 I'm not a big horror fan, but I do think that all stories, whether they be horror or not, to have their place. Well most of them have their place, as we've talked about today. Some maybe don't anymore, but I feel like every story deserves to be told. 

 AUTUMN 

 126:21 

 All right. And are you still 100% on board with horror or after this? Or you're like, I don't know, have we converted you at least a little bit away from it? 

 IVY 

 126:28 

 No, I'm not really. I am always fascinated by urban legends because of what they show and imply when it comes to cultural components and human psychology and all of those things. So I don't think anything can convert me away from seeing the merits in urban legends and mythology, because I feel like those things are important. 

As far as like actual horror goes, there are some types of horror that I'm totally on board with. But even though I have embraced a lot of horror, there are also parts of the horror genre that I am not at all impressed with. I don't have any interest in the Saw movies or Hostel or any of these, where it's literally just gratuitous violence for the sake of violence. Those don't appeal to me at all. 

From a societal standpoint, I can understand why some of those movies were made. I can understand why, from a psychological standpoint, those things can kind of appeal to some people, because everybody has a little bit of darkness in them. We all have on some level at some point, some violent urges, like we all have that bit of darkness in us, and horror is a way to explore that without doing any actual harm. So I still am a fan of horror as a genre. 

Overall, I do think there are times when horror it's an entirely too far for no fucking reason at all. I think movies like Saw are completely objectionable and don't contribute a whole lot. But horror as an overall genre, I do think, still has a lot of merit. 

And a lot of creativity in it too. Because I have spent as much, if not more, time watching documentaries about horror movies and making of horror movies to see the passion that these creators have for it. To see what societal issues and cultural issues contribute to the stories that they're trying to turn into these horror movies. And there's a lot of creativity, especially in terms of special effects and things like that, that goes into the creation of these movies. And I have a lot of respect for that. There are a lot of really brilliant artists and creators that are involved in the horror genre. 

And horror as a genre, has a lot more freedom to explore topics and ideas that you don't have as much freedom for other genres, and I can respect that as well. So I will probably never be converted away from the idea that horror has some merit. But I can definitely understand why some people don't like it and don't have any interest in it. Especially this stuff like Saw and Last House on the Left, which really are just going above and beyond be as awful as possible. 

AUTUMN 

I think you make some really valid points. And I think that's the biggest learning lesson for me today, is that horror really is a spectrum. It's not an either or thing. And so I can see how certain types of horror and certain types of ideas and stories can be beneficial. And after today, I could actually see taking a little bit of an interest in some of these ideas. 

What about you? What about our listeners? Are you guys for horror or are you against horror? And about these urban legends specifically, do you think they're worth retelling? Do you think there's a point to them, or do you think they're just nonsense we’re killing time with? We would love to hear from you and know what your opinions are on any of this. Ivy, can you give them our connect bits so they could give us their opinions? 

 IVY 

 129:37 

I certainly can. And I remembered at the last second to unmute my microphone. So I don't know if I'm getting better at it or if this is just one of the off days when I actually remember to unmute my microphone. But here we are. You can find us at our website: www.DifferentFunctional.com. Check out our resources page for this episode. There will be tons of stuff on there about all the true crime stuff that we talked about today. And then if you want to contact us through the website, you find us out our contact form, shoot us a message there. 

You can find us on social media. We are on Facebook as different functional, and we're on Instagram and TikTok as different _functional. We are, as we mentioned at the start of the episode on Patreon, and if you want some bonus goodies, find us there! Join the Patreon! It's cheap. I think $3 or $5 or something like that. It's been a while since I checked our price, but it is affordable. 

If that does not suit your fancy, that's totally fine too. What we would love if you enjoyed the podcast and you want to support it, but you don't want to support it financially, we totally understand, but if you can leave us a rating or review. Leave us some comments on our social media, drop us a DM. 

Whether it's about this episode or just in general, we would love to interact with you. We'd love to hear from you more. And as always, if you can spread the word about us, that would be great. And this episode is great for spooky season. So if you know anybody who enjoys horror and urban legends and true crime, it’d be great if you could direct them our way at least for this episode, 

 AUTUMN 

 131:03 

 Just so you know, Jake, this is the part of the episode where we beg people to interact with us and spread the word. Would you like to do a little begging for us?

 JAKE 

 131:10 

 Sure. I mean, why not? We're awesome people. I mean, don't know about them, but I'm awesome, so you should at least come listen to this episode for me, if nothing else. You know, support me. I mean, you can support them by proxy, but definitely support me. It's important for my self-esteem. Okay, no it's not. I'm actually good, but I'd still take your support anyway. So. Yeah. Spooky Season! 

 AUTUMN 

 131:31 

 Thanks, Jake, and thank you for being with us today. And definitely do interact with us and spread the word. We hope you have a wonderful, happy, and safe Halloween. We thank you for listening. As always, remember, different does not mean defective.