Episode 44: Pop Culture and the Pre Apocalypse: Staying Sane While the World Falls Apart

There’s a whole lot of crazy going on in the world right now. Maybe there always is but these last few years it has felt worse than usual. The pandemic, social unrest, political corruption, economic downturn, ongoing war, an uptick in natural disasters, and so on and so on. Nearly all of us are feeling the effects of this combined chaos in one way or another, and while it’s not quite the apocalypse there are some days when it sure does feel like it. So, what are we to do? How do we get through the madness of these trying times while still maintaining our sanity? Well, when truth becomes stranger than fiction it might actually be beneficial to explore what real-world survival skills fictional pop culture protagonists can teach us to help us survive the pre-apocalypse. If you’d like to support us on Patreon you can find us at www.patreon.com/differentfunctional And don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast and leave us a rating and review. Thanks for listening!

AUTUMN 

 0:00 

 Welcome to the Different Functional Podcast where we explore the triumphs and challenges of trauma recovery and being neurodivergent in a neurotypical world. In today's episode, we're going to be taking a page from some of our favorite pop culture characters who live in surreal worlds to help us find a way to survive what feels like the pre apocalypse. 

I am Autumn, the older sister, and for my fact of the day, I'm going to tell you the fictional character I would love to have help me during the pre-, well and the post-, apocalypse. And for me, that is Captain Malcolm Reynolds from the Firefly. And I will admit this is cheating a little bit because if I get Captain Malcolm Reynolds, I also get the entire crew of The Firefly. 

I love the idea of having him and the crew help me because they all have these very unique set of skills. They're not what I would call well rounded people. They are edgy and barbed and unbalanced in their areas of expertise, but so am I. And I think I would fit really well and be able to provide a definite set of skills that would help all of us get through a difficult time and also be able to learn a lot of really great skills that I am definitely lacking and need to figure out so that I can make it through our current pre apocalypse. 

 IVY 

 1:23 

I don't think that's cheating. I think that's actually pretty fair because some people kind of come as a package deal. And when you are the captain of a ship, then that generally means you come with a package of other people that are part of that crew because a captain cannot do all of the tasks associated with that ship. So I don't think that's cheating. I do think that is a creative loophole, though, that I wish I had thought of. 

I am Ivy, the younger sister, and I am going a completely different route with my favorite character to try to help me through the apocalypse. And this is one that even if you are familiar with as anime, you might be. What? What does that have to do with the apocalypse at all? Because most people, when they think of the apocalypse, we think of all the movies or the Resident Evil movies and zombie apocalypse, and you're thinking of these really hard-edge badass characters. But when I was thinking of characters, I was having a really hard time thinking of any at all. 

And I mostly watch anime, and in anime, I mostly watch high school romance anime. So my character to help me through the apocalypse would be Takumi Usui from Maid Sama, which I know sounds weird that an anime character from a high school romance may, but hear me out. If you've ever seen that anime, you know that Usui is, like, superhuman somehow. He always magically appears just when you need him. He never loses his cool, he's always well collected, and he has this insane number of skill sets that seemingly come out of nowhere and are extremely impressive for a high school age boy. He's very mature and logical, and he somehow has superhuman abilities. Like, he can leap off of a five-story building and be totally fine. So I'm thinking this would be a really great person to have on board during an apocalypse of any kind, because he seems to be a Mary Poppins bag full of just resourcefulness and superhuman strength and logic and all sorts of skill sets. There seems to be no end to what he can do. So I'm thinking he's the best option. 

 AUTUMN 

 3:40 

 I could see that and I kind of get where you're coming from too, on this. Like the idea of that high school romance anime field. Because as I was looking through the list and different things I like and who would help me through the apocalypse, I came up with a lot of great characters but they are, like you said, they're bad ass. And I feel like these are all people that are just a little too hard edged because we are at the pre apocalypse phase. And so I haven't gone through the kind of apocalypse bullshit that's going to get me to Alice from Resident Evil just yet. So if she is my drill sergeant in this, I think I'm just going to be crying a lot. So I could see needing somebody just a little softer and fluffier to start this apocalyptic journey.

 IVY 

 4:23 

You know that is actually something I did not think about from that angle. That also makes Usui perfect because he has a hell of a sense of humor. He's not all hard edged. He is capable of doing badass hard edged things, but he himself is not hard edged. He's actually pretty chill to be around. So yeah, I feel even more confident in my decision now of who I would choose in the apocalypse, even if he does seem like an odd fit for the idea of an apocalyptic world.

 AUTUMN 

 4:52 

So I know, I get it. Pre apocalypse, that sounds like a really strong word. And yes, we are somewhat jokingly using this, but also somewhat seriously because okay, tell me if I'm wrong, but does it not feel like the world is falling apart just a little bit? I mean, we've got worldwide pandemics that have shut down all of the countries pretty much. We are going through recession. We have rights being stripped away left and right. I believe the world is literally on fire in multiple places. We're having horrible climate things that are catching up with us right now. And I get since the beginning of civilization, the end has been nigh. But I'm just saying globally it feels a little stressful right now. 

 IVY 

 5:39 

 I agree that it's pretty stressful at the moment. And even on a smaller scale, it feels to me like The Matrix is glitching a little bit and everything is extra weird.  So I'll give you an example here of what I mean, a couple of examples. I was in my apartment, I'm making dinner and I hear yelling coming from the parking lots. And we live in kind of a weird area of town. So I go to check out what's going on to see if the police need to be called. Maybe I go to our bedroom window. We're on the third story and I look down at the parking lot and there's a dude, barefoot, standing in the parking lot. He's got a bat in one hand and a knife in the other and. And he's talking to another dude in the parking lot. And this guy is a resident. He's removing his bike from his bike rack on his car, and the dude with the knife and the bat is yelling at him

So at first I'm thinking, oh, shit, I should call the cops. But then I listen to what he's saying, and what he is yelling to the man is how much he loves him. So I've got a shoeless man holding a bat and a knife yelling at one of my fellow residents in this complex who's just trying to go about his life. Dude's just trying to remove his bike from his bike rack. And he has this dude with two weapons yelling at him about how much he loves him. That's just fucking weird in and of itself. 

But then I text a friend of mine from Oklahoma about this weird thing that I have just seen, and he has his own weird experience that he had earlier in that day. There's no weapons involved in this, no yelling. But it is weird in a different way. 

It was at the convenience store and at the drink fountain. There was some woman who was getting ice, but she wasn't getting ice from the ice dispenser. She was getting the ice that had fallen down from the ice dispenser, the ones that spill over from people's cups and they end up in that little grate area. She was taking that and filling a cup with that ice. And then when her cup was full, she kept grabbing the ice from down in that grate and shoving it into her bra for later. 

So I'm thinking not only does the world feel like it's on fire on a global scale in really scary ways, but it also just feels like something is glitching out in the matrix. We're having an issue going on, and things are extra fucking weird right now. 

 AUTUMN 

 8:08 

 They really are. I mean, globally and personally. Yes, I've seen a lot more weird things going on, and I live in a pretty rural area, and I personally have had a lot more just random and crazy shit that is just happening that really does make it feel preapocalyptic on some levels. And even if it's not the pre apocalypse, it is definitely a step up in craziness and stress that we're having to deal with. 

And like I said, for a lot of us, we already have enough difficulty trying to function, dealing with our own mental health issues, and now we have to deal with the world being doubly insane. We were having a hard enough time trying to be sane in a sane world, and now we're sitting here trying to be sane in an insane world. 

And it's really difficult because a lot of us, at least me anyways, I feel like I want to revert back because I know what it feels like to live in insanity. I came from that in my childhood. I get sue reality and things that are completely unhealthy and crazy. But so was my way of existing back then, and I don't want to revert to that so that I can survive in this world. I want to find healthy ways to survive in an insane world. And that's kind of where I'm at right now. It's like, how do I do that? How do I keep moving forward and being healthy and grow and manage my mental health in a positive way when the world around me is all falling apart and my sanity no longer fits because the world itself is now insane? 

 IVY 

 9:42 

I definitely see where you're coming from on that. I have a lot of cynicism in me. I'm a very cynical person. I've got very little faith in humanity. But I will say, in this situation, as I'm watching the world crumble and fall apart around me, I have this glimmer of optimism. In the sense that I think those of us who are neurodivergent and have struggled with our mental health and have a trauma history, I think in a lot of ways we are at an advantage in these crazy ass times that we're in. We kind of have the best of both worlds in the sense that we have our streak of madness. We have this brilliance and creativity that comes with that streak of madness. And we are accustomed to chaos and insanity. 

And so when we see weird things, it doesn't freak us out as much. Like, we may feel exhausted by it. We may be fearful of what the future may hold, but I don't think that a lot of us are as panicked as maybe the neurotypical folks that have had relatively sheltered lives and haven't had to deal with a whole lot of adversity because this is all familiar to us. We've all been swimming in the madness and the chaos for most of our lives. So we have that part of us that's kind of a scrapper. 

We're kind of street smart when it comes to insanity. But we've also been working on ourselves for a long time. And so we've learned all of these healthy coping skills because we were trying to become more sane. And so I think we're actually much more balanced and better equipped to deal with the craziness that is the world right now, to deal with these pre apocalyptic conditions. And if push came to shove, to deal with apocalyptic conditions too, because we have a more well-rounded skill set both within the realm of madness and within the realm of sanity. 

AUTUMN

 11:32 

I am on board with that. I think where it comes in, though, is how do we do this? How do we manage to take these skills we learned and to take the experiences we've had of living in insane unhealthy arenas? And how do we combine these in a way that's going to allow us to move forward healthily and positively with that little bit of sense of hope? Especially for so many of us that are rather cynical and jaded? Because I feel like hope is quite necessary during these times. 

So that is why we are turning to some of our favorite fictional characters. And some of these maybe they will be those apocalyptic characters, but a lot of them are a lot more friendly. But they do have that streak of madness and they are living in a surreal world. So we want to look at some of these characters that all of us know and say, okay, what lessons can we learn from them? How can we emulate how they have taken their madness and the beauty that is in that and made it something beautiful and growth oriented to move forward in a hopeful manner in what is an insane world. 

And I think one of the most excellent stories for this entire concept is Alice in Wonderland. And we're going to start with a lot of those characters because they provided a lot of great lessons. And the very first character, of course, from Alice in Wonderland that we're going to talk about is Alice herself. Now, I'll admit, I think I've read the original Alice in Wonderland, like, once. I saw the cartoon as a kid. That freaked me out. Admittedly, I don't think you should be allowed to see Alice in Wonderland like that Disney cartoon until you're like an adult consenting. And then I'm most familiar now with the major motion pictures that had, like, Johnny Depp in them, and I loved those. 

But one of the things I saw from Alice the entire way, especially in those major motion pictures, was she just rode the wave. I think that was my biggest lesson that I learned from Alice, is the world got turned upside down. She went down a rabbit hole, quite literally. I mean, that's where we get the phrase from it. And everything is topsy turvy and it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't follow the rules of logic or what should happen. And while she does resist this initially a little bit, she doesn't just sit down in denial. She gets up and does something about it. She keeps moving forward. She keeps saying, well, okay, if this is what's happening, how do we play by the rules of this game? Okay, the rules are changing. Now, how do we play by it? Because she keeps moving forward and she keeps riding the wave, which is, I will admit, extremely difficult for me. 

 IVY 

 13:57 

Yeah, I've always loved that about the character of Alice as well. She's such an interesting character in general, not just in the context of this idea of the pre apocalypse, but just in general. I feel like in some ways, we could all benefit from being a little bit more like her. And I think in a lot of ways, people who are neurodivergent and have a trauma history, we kind of can be in some ways because we are used to our sense of reality being flipped upside down. We're used to having the rug pulled out from underneath our feet. And that is the lesson that generally comes with that, is being able to be adaptable. 

One of the other things that I really love about Alice is that part of what allows her to ride the wave in all of this madness is that she approaches everything with this level of intense curiosity. She wants to understand more about what's going on around her. She wants to understand more about herself and how she fits into this world. She's constantly asking questions. She's constantly pushing at the boundaries, but she never gets so attached to any one sense of reality that it keeps her stuck. 

And I think being able to approach every interaction we have, every internal epiphany that we have, every change that comes at us with that level of curiosity keeps us on the path towards being more adaptable. And I think it also teaches us a lot about ourselves and how to stay firm in who we are when the world is constantly changing around us and our circumstances are constantly changing around us. 

Because one of the things that I love about her character and how she interacts with all of the other characters in the story, because I've read the books and seen the cartoon and seen the Disney version with Johnny Depp, and I've also seen other adaptations of the story because this story really fascinates me. And one of the themes that consistently comes up throughout most adaptations is when she's interacting with these other characters and they're presenting her with this reality that is so separate from what she has known, so different from what she has known. She does push back against it, but she also is able to accept that the reality around her has changed. While not really losing sight of herself, she still stays very firm in herself and her overall convictions, but she recognizes that her convictions do not always reflect the reality she finds herself in. It doesn't change her ability to stay firm in herself. And I really love that about her character. 

She can accept reality changing around her. She can adapt to that reality. She can see it with a level of objectivity and curiosity and fascination, but she still essentially remains herself. And I think that's a big part, too, of that. Being able to ride the wave is being able to stay firm in yourself. Even when you have to adapt to completely different circumstances than what you're accustomed to, and even when the rules of the game are constantly changing. 

 AUTUMN 

 16:54 

You do have to have a really firm, firm belief in yourself in order to be able to move forward. And I would say almost like a firm belief in what you consider reality. But again, that acceptance that your reality isn't necessarily other people's reality, which I will say being autistic, that is very hard for me because I need that structure, and I need those edges, and I need that boundary, and I need those firm yes, no rigid, black white answers, which I feel are getting harder and harder to find right now. 

Which is part of the reason I do find myself turning more toward Alice. And I'm trying to foster, like Ivy said, that sense of curiosity in myself. Because when I am able to be curious, it eases some of the anxiety I feel about living in what feels like a surreal world. So if I can open up that curiosity in that childlike wonder, I feel almost a correlating anxiety drop. So I am really trying to emulate her in that manner. 

Another character from Alice in Wonderland that also has a lot of good lessons is the Mad Hatter. And probably not the best lesson, but for me personally, one of the things I love about the Mad Hatter. Is he's like, oh, I get that my reality isn't anybody else's, but fuck it. This is the one that makes me happy, and so I'm going to live in it. It's a little bit what I'm kind of doing with my entire life. It's like, okay, yes, I get that the way I function and behave and think and believe does not fit with society. It didn't fit with society back before it was falling apart, and it sure as hell doesn't fit with it now that it is falling apart. So I'm going to not live there. Then I'm going to go do my own little thing in my happy little world. Again. Probably not the best lesson I should learn from the Mad Hatter, but one I am learning nonetheless. 

 IVY 

 18:43 

I don't find that to be a negative lesson either, though I would be reluctant to qualify it as either a good or bad thing. Because while we do need to be able to be connected to what's going on around us and aware of what's going on around us, even those things that are painful and unpleasant, we can't get stuck in that, because that paralyzes us and that cripples us. And so we have to find those silver linings. We have to find the good things. We have to create the good things as well. So I've always loved the Mad Hatter, too, because that is what he does. 

Yeah, he recognizes the dangers of the world that he lives in. He is well aware that he is quirky and weird, even by the standards of his world. And let's face it, Wonderland is really fucking surreal. And yet even with that understanding and that awareness and that connection, because he's not isolated from the other characters, if anything, he's kind of like a networker in that world. So he's not isolated from the world, and yet he still is able to carve out his own little space in it and find his happy place and create moments of goodness, not for himself, but for other people. Kind of bring them out of that darkness and heaviness and the danger and fear and bring them to his tea party where everything is cakes and yummy teas and a little bit of chaos, but, like, fun chaos. 

And I think the other lesson to be learned from Hatter as well, I kind of mentioned it before was that networker. I think that's why in a lot of adaptations of Alice in Wonderland, he ends up being the primary secondary character. So next to Alice, he's pretty much the one that everybody is the most familiar with. And to me, after seeing all the adaptations that I have, I think the reason why he ends up being that is because in some ways, he is a little bit of a guide for Alice. But he also is able to be that because he is connected to everybody else in that. And he, maybe because he's able to find the good things, and he's able to distract when he needs to from the bad things. He's able to deescalate in some situations and create diversions. He's able to be connected to pretty much all of the characters in Wonderland and not be on anybody's bad side. He's actually a very good networker, and he has a lot of connections that he is able to use in order to help Alice and to improve the circumstances for other people within Wonderland as well. And I think that's also a very important lesson to be learned from him.

 AUTUMN 

 21:16 

It is an important lesson to be learned from him, but I feel that it's one I can't learn. Maybe I'm being a little disparaging, but a networker I am not. I have found that networking really requires you to talk to other people, which is not something I have a vast interest in. 

 IVY 

 21:36 

What I will say is that you may not need to be the networker, but being able to find the networker is also equally important. Because I also don't have a lot of personal connections. But a lot of the personal connections that I do have know somebody that knows somebody that knows somebody who can do this thing or knows about that thing. So sometimes being able to find the networker is just as important as being the networker. 

 AUTUMN 

 22:01 

 That is a really good point, because I will say that you are pretty much my network. But if you were to look at Ivy, she is not a networker at all, but she is on the peripheral edge of a lot of networks. That in and of itself is a good lesson, especially for people like me that find it difficult or impossible to network. Well, how do you find those resources and how do you find those people that can help you out of those situations? Even if it's something as simple as, like, well, I need a mechanic for my car because I don't have the money right now with inflation and all this other bullshit that's happening. And I just need this part replaced, but I can't do it myself. Well, what if you have one friend that knows another friend that knows another friend that knows another friend. That is, I guess, the whole point of the network is you don't necessarily have to be the spider in the center. You can be on the peripheral edges of know. 

One of the other things I like about the Hatter, though, Ivy mentioned that tea party. And that is honestly something even before the world felt like it was falling apart to the degree it is now that I've always been working towards. I have been trying to get my house in order and enough to have that tea party. So, no, I am not the networker. But I would love to be able to be a safe, open place for other people that want to, A) have an escape from the world to some degree, but also, B) need some assistance. You know, you said that the Mad Hatter was a guide to Alice, and I've been on this journey not as long as some people, but I have been on this journey for a couple of three decades now, and I've learned some shit along the way. And I would love to get to the point where I am capable of offering some of that guidance if other people want it. 

But I would love to get to the point that I could host that Tea Party and be like, here is this giant empty table. If you would like to come sit a while, if you would like to get a little bit of wisdom, if you would like a little cake, if you just want to step away from the madness or dip more fully into a much more positive, happy madness, I can be that place. And so that is another thing I love about The Hatter and that I personally have been trying to emulate. 

 IVY 

 24:04 

I think having cake is always a good icebreaker. You do that. Just offer people cake. You see somebody that looks like they're emotionally in need of some support or advice and just be like, I have cake. Would you like some? And I have, like, a variety of different cakes, like a sugar free cake, gluten free cake, so that way you can appeal to as many people as possible. But, yeah, I would just offer cake. I think that's a good way to get people to come closer, because very few people despise cake. Most people have a fondness for it even when they don't want to admit to it. Just start carrying around cake. I think that's what you should do 

 AUTUMN 

 24:39 

With all the different types of cake, I'm going to have some sort of cake trench coat that I open up with all these little baggies of cake. Like, here's the vegan cake, the sugar free cake, the gluten free cake, the gluten free vegan, sugar free cake. That's okay. I'll figure that out. I'll get the cake trench coat going. 

So another character from Alice in Wonderland, and Ivy wanted to add this one in here. And I fucking hate this guy. I'm going to admit it. I hate this guy: The Cheshire cat. And I realized why I hated this guy when Ivy told me what it is that she felt he represented. I was all, I hate this guy. He's a douche. Why do you want him in here? Because he exemplifies radical acceptance, is what Ivy said to me. And I'm like, that's why I hate that guy.

Because I am trying so hard. I have been trying so hard for so long with the radical acceptance. I think it's that autistic part of my brain. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just me that gets hung up on the but it shouldn't be that way. Oh, I get that it is. Yes, it is that way, and I accept that it's that way, but it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be that way, because it shouldn't be that way. And so I have a very hard time letting go of that connection to the way things are. And I find myself very aversive to people that can just openly be like, oh, but that's how it is. This is the way it is. It is what it is, and we shall just accept it and move forward. And I'm all like, but it shouldn't be that way. 

And so I find myself getting angry at the people that can do radical acceptance. Partially because I'm jealous, because I'm not good at it, and partially because you represent the acceptance of things that shouldn't be that way. 

 IVY 

 26:26 

Yeah, I could see how that would be a problem for you. See, as a very contradictory person in a lot of ways, there is a strong streak of Cheshire Cat in me. I would like to be more accepting than I am because I definitely have my moments of rigidity. There's part of me that's also like the white rabbit who's super stressed out all the time because nothing is going to plan and everything could turn into a catastrophe any instant. But there is also a part of me that is down for the chaos. And I feel like that's how Cheshire cat is. He's just very accepting of the chaos. 

Here is my takeaway from the Cheshire Cat in terms of how he manages to do this. And I think this is the part of me that relates to him because I am somebody that mostly isolates myself. Cheshire Cat is able to be as chill as he is because he fucking comes and goes as he pleases. He drops in, he has a conversation, he disappears. Like, literally disappears. And I feel like I do that a lot. For the most part, I'm isolated from most people, I keep my distance from most people. Most of the time I feel like I exist in a different world from everybody else, but I drop into other people's worlds from time to time and I'll have a conversation with them and I'll share a bit of wisdom or I'll receive a bit of wisdom from that person and then I'm gone. 

The reason why I do that is because it's necessary way for me to do that. I cannot be fully immersed in reality all the time. I have to be able to come and go as I please. I have to be able to choose when I connect and when I am off on my own. And being able to keep that separation from everybody else's. Reality allows me to have more acceptance for that reality when I do have to be in it, because I'm not inundated in it all the time. I'm not immersed in it all the time. I keep a level of separation because that's what allows me in some ways to stay sane or happily insane in this larger reality that can at times be very dark and dangerous. 

And I think that's how the Cheshire Cat manages to do it, too. He's able to radically accept this larger world where all of these dangers and all this darkness and all this madness lurks, because he lives, in some ways, in his own reality. He is in everybody else's reality, but not of it. And I feel like that's kind of where I'm at, too. And that's what allows me to have that more radical acceptance for things as they are in the outside world, because I don't feel as confined or controlled by those things. 

 AUTUMN 

 28:46 

 I would say this is another one of those where, again, find your network, find your people, because this is one I don't know that I am honestly fully capable of. I am very much an either-or person. And so Ivy talks about being aware of it, but not of it. If I'm aware of it because I've actually taken a concern about it, then I am of it, and I am covered in it, and I am stuck in it, and I am drowning in it. And that is why it is helpful to have people that are more Cheshire Cat like, because Ivy is and my boyfriend is. They are able to be more objective and more removed from things and have an awareness without drowning in it. 

But I will say, unlike the Cheshire Cat, both Ivy and my boyfriend are a lot more validating about my experience. And they say, we understand that you're drowning. We understand that this is horrible. And they're able to validate me, but they're also able to provide me that life buoy so that I don't completely drown in it. Whereas the Cheshire Cat is just a dick. I'm just going to say that. He's a dick

 IVY 

 29:44 

I never interpreted him as a dick, but I can see now why you would think that he was an asshole, because looking back and I'm like, yeah, I guess he does come across as kind of dickish. Sometimes he comes in and he drops his wisdom, but his wisdom is not really validating at all. His wisdom is just like, yeah, shit sucks, and it sucks to be you. I'm out. I'm glad that Jake and I do not do that. 

That is definitely one of the downsides, the darker sides to the Cheshire Cat, but nobody is perfect. Everybody has a little bit of duplicity in them. I guess everybody's got duality. So I guess Cheshire Cat can't be all good, no matter how much I want to paint him, only in that positive light, because I really like that character. 

 AUTUMN 

 30:35 

 Now it is possible that the Cheshire Cat, with people that he loves and actually cares about, is like you and Jake and is very validating. He's just like that with everybody else who's just an extra in his life, Because we don't actually get to see how he interacts with people he knows. He's just interacting with these peripheral characters that aren't really his whole life at all. 

 IVY 

 30:53 

That's true. We never really learned from any of the Alice adaptations who Cheshire Cat cares about. We never get to see that part of this world. I never really thought about whether or not it existed. Hopefully it exists. Otherwise, that's kind of sad for the Cheshire Cat, but would also explain why he's kind of a dick. Because when you don't have any connections at all, it's really hard to develop things like, I don't know, empathy. 

 AUTUMN 

 31:17 

 Little thing like empathy. Who needs that? 

All right, so the last Alice in Wonderland character we're going to talk about today is one that I can actually very much relate to, and that is the Caterpillar. Okay, so I don't relate to him in a lot of ways. I'm not very guru like, giving out this weird advice, nor do I sit on my little mushroom and smoke mushrooms all day. But one of the things that caterpillar did is he really, really simplified his life completely. 

I feel like that's a big representation, at least in my mind, of what this Caterpillar character was, was simplifying your life, getting rid of all of the shit that doesn't matter, almost that Buddhist idea of attachment and how that causes pain. And while I'm not going to go to that extreme where I want to rid myself of all attachment because, well, I'm attached to my attachment, I do really agree with the idea that simplifying your life is necessary to survival. I mean, whether that's just mental health on a regular day or mental health during the apocalypse, anything you can simplify is going to make life easier. 

I have gotten rid of so many things. But I have felt so much more peace and have had so many more resources by disconnecting from things, by giving up possessions, by being less concerned about a lot of these. I know it's cliched, but worldly things and allowing those things to not take up space in my mind has freed me up to spend my resources on stuff like keeping myself functioning and providing for those that I love. 

 IVY 

 32:55 

I also like that aspect of caterpillar with the simplifying your life. It is something that I am actively working on and have been working on for quite some time. Again, it's like that contradictory thing. In some ways. I'm very rigid and my apartment is almost always spotlessly, clean and everything is organized. But I have a lot of internal chaos and it's very hard for me to simplify that part of things. 

And I'll be mean. Autumn may not like the Cheshire cat. I don't like the caterpillar. I've never liked that character. He pisses me off so much because he's so Zen and it pisses me off because I struggle with being that which I know is something I should probably work towards, does not fit my personality at all. And he irritates me in that way. I like the simplification lifestyle that I am trying to emulate. The rest of him irritates me. 

The other thing that irritates me about caterpillar: God damn it, dude! Just give me simple answers. That dude talks in riddles. I don't like puzzles. I don't enjoy puzzles. I don't have the patience for them. I don't like riddles. Don't give me cryptic messages. I already overthink things too much. I don't need you adding to that. Just give me simple answers. Because he is incapable of giving a simple answer. 

He always wants you to look deeper into everything, which is a lesson that maybe some people need to learn, being able to look deeper, deeper within. Look deeper into everything that's going on around you. Look for deeper meaning. I know that there are some people that would benefit very much from that part of the lesson. But why you always got to speak in riddles like that? Shit pisses me off. I would not be able to spend very much time around Caterpillar. 

I will deal with Cheshire Cat all day, because he may be a dick, but he's at least pretty direct. Caterpillar always speaks so cryptically and also super slow, which also annoys me. My brain's moving too fast for that. I got shit to do, man. I just need some straight answers from you. I wish he would simplify his answers. That's what I wish he would do. 

 AUTUMN 

 34:56 

 Okay, I will agree with that. I do hate cryptic answers, but sometimes I have been accused of giving cryptic answers when I feel like I'm being direct and simple. But I've usually examined something more intensely than other people have. And so when I provide the information, it was too deep and they needed like six levels up from that and then I've kind of got to dig my way up though. 

I will say this about caterpillar, one of the great things, even if you're not Zen, hang out with the caterpillar for a while, you will be just because of the contact high. So I'm just going to throw that out there.

 IVY 

 35:28 

Yeah, that is definitely true. You hang out around caterpillar a little while, you probably will have some interesting visions for sure, maybe help you get a little bit of perspective on life. 

One thing that I will say for caterpillar, yes, it aggravates me because it goes into the cryptic answers that he always gives. And this is also something Autumn, that you are guilty of. And I think maybe this is why people accuse you of cryptic answers. And it's not a bad thing, but it can be kind of frustrating sometimes. Part of the reason why he gives cryptic answers is because he wants people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And you do that too. 

For you, I think it's a different reason because for you, when you care enough about somebody to give them advice, you have a vested interest in them taking that advice so that their life can get better. But you also understand that that's kind of domineering and a dick move to try to control other people's lives. So a lot of the way that you handle things when people come to you for advice does sound kind of cryptic because there is that encouragement there to think for yourself and to come to your own conclusions. 

And so you offer a lot of pros and cons and the balancing things and the duality of stuff. You offer a little bit of everything so people can make their own informed choices, which is also what caterpillar does. And I do think that is an important lesson. Part of the reason I am able to deep dive as much into introspection and why I do have so much curiosity and I do ask so many questions and I take my time forming opinions is because Autumn raised me that way. Which is probably part of the reason caterpillar irritates me so much because I could never get a straight answer out of Autumn when we were growing up. She didn't let me be lazy about forming my own convictions. She had her own. But there was always this sense that don't just take my convictions, don't be a thief. You can't just follow me and do whatever I say and do whatever I do. You have to have your own opinions, you have to make your own choices. 

And I think that is a really important thing to learn from Caterpillar is that we don't always get simple answers. We, we don't always get somebody telling us what to do and we shouldn't always have somebody telling us what to do and dictating what our conviction should be. We should be looking deeper. We should be looking at more sources. Just even when we look at the news, we shouldn't just be looking at one side of the aisle’s news or the others. We should be getting as much information from as many different places as possible so that we can form our own opinions. And I think that is one of the most valuable lessons that we learned from Caterpillar. 

It's not just about simplifying your life. It's also about cultivating informed decisions. But you can't cultivate informed decisions when you are just following the crowd or when you're just doing what somebody else told you to do. When you take the path of least resistance and just do what you're told and think what you're told you're supposed to think. That's ultimately not going to be very helpful for you. Not in surviving the pre apocalypse or surviving an apocalypse or even just surviving life, for fuck's sake. 

We have to be able to think for ourselves, even when we want it to be easier and we want somebody else to take the responsibility of our decisions off of our shoulders. Because that responsibility can be really overwhelming sometimes. And the older you get, the bigger the consequences are when you do make a decision. But we have to be able to make those. And it's important to cultivate our ability to make informed decisions and we're only able to do that when we do ask questions and we get cryptic answers that we have to actually think about. 

 AUTUMN 

 39:17 

 I would say that's also part of the reason me and Caterpillar both blow a lot of smoke up your ass, so to speak. In Caterpillar's case, yes, with the cryptid remarks [and] also literally. But you've accused me a lot and your other autistic friends of just out not lying about certain things just to kind of see what we can get away with. And I think that's part of it because it's like, are you going to believe me? Oh, you're not, you're not going to trust me, you're going to think for yourself? Good. Because that's what I wanted. 

I didn't want you to just believe that fact because I said it. I want did you to learn to question everything, even the people you love and trust, to make sure that their reality or their beliefs actually make sense for you and your path. 

 IVY 

 40:00

That is honestly one of my favorite things about all of the autistic people in my life. They do bullshit a lot. And I have learned as a result of that, that you can never fully trust what comes out of their mouth and you shouldn't fully trust. I'm not saying they're out and out liars. I'm not saying there's malevolence there because there's not. They're usually either just poking things with a stick to see what happens because they're interested in seeing the reaction. But a lot of times, too, I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong, it feels a little bit like you're kind of sifting through people to see what people have minds of their own versus people that just follow the crowds. 

I find that to be a very positive thing. I have learned so many good things from every autistic person in my life, in part because I know they bullshit. And so when they say something, I don't automatically accept it. When they say something, I'm like, I'm going to look that up for myself. Now I'm curious about that. And I think every autistic person in my life at least they kind of enjoy that. It's kind of fun for them when somebody does think for themselves and pushes back a little bit or questions it, or when they get the sense that that person's bullshit meter is going off and they're like, oh, they're on to me. Okay, this person actually has a mind of their own. They're on to me. This is good. 

 AUTUMN 

 41:21 

 Yeah, it is. A little bit of that. And unfortunately, a lot of people well, let's just say they're not in my life.

So let's move away from Alice in Wonderland and let's step into another children's book. And this one would be Willy Wonka. And the main character here is the one we want to talk about. And we did talk about this a little bit with the Mad hatter, that idea of creating your own reality. But I feel like Willy Wonka really took it to another level. He had these kinda crazy ideas, but he didn't just have a tea party, he built a whole factory. He had a whole subculture in the factory. And then not only that, but when people stepped into his reality, they were required to participate in that. And if you did not participate in that reality, well, you were going to suffer significant, severe consequences. 

And to me, I know a lot of people think he's a little bit crazy. Like I've seen the memes talking how Gene Wilder's, Willy Wonka compared to the new kid, whoever he is, that's coming in that recent Willy Wonka movie and about how, the original Gene Wilder, he had that look of madness in his eyes. Like maybe he just might push you into the chocolate river to drown you and you never really knew. But in a way, these kind of people are just a little bit necessary during the pre apocalypse and the apocalypse as well. Because, yes, while these lessons are hard to learn and this is a reality we don't want to accept, and it is one we want to run away from, there is that necessity to make us confront it, because we can't run away from it. We can't run away. 

Resources being depleted and our rights being stripped away and pandemics becoming more and more frequent, these are realities we have to live with. And while Willy Wonka created his own reality, he did also make you live by those rules and make you accept it. And when you mis-stepped and you fell into that chocolate fountain, that was a consequence you had to deal with. And to some degree, we do need to start having more of these people in our lives that are willing to say and willing to allow us to make the mistakes, to trip on the playground, to hurt ourselves, to skin our knee, even to break our arm. Because if we are really talking pre apocalypse or if we're even just talking a surge in the historical spike of events, that's going to get worse before it gets better, well, it's going to get worse before it gets better, and we better figure out how to break our arm now so we don't completely break ourselves later. 

 IVY 

 43:55 

 I do think there is something to be said for that. It's important to have people in our lives that don't just coddle us and shelter us from everything, because in order for us to actually learn, a lot of us do have to learn from our own mistakes. There are some people that are capable of just learning from other people's mistakes. I am not one of them. I'll openly admit that. And I always said that when I was a teenager, anytime there was an adult that was like, don't do this thing, I did that thing, and it didn't work out for me. I literally remember telling multiple adults, no, I want to make my own mistakes. That's what I want to do. And I am definitely one of those people that learns best from making my own mistakes. And it's important to have people in your life that allow you to make those mistakes and own accountability for yourself and not try to clean up the mess for you, not try to shelter you, not try to coddle you. 

But at the same time, at least I can't remember in the original version, but at least in the Johnny Depp version of Willy Wonka, which I know a lot of people hated, I loved it for different reasons than the Gene Wilder one, but I did love it. And at the end of that movie, yes, you had all these characters that would experience consequences that will, in some ways, have permanent impacts on their lives. But all of those characters still left the factory, okay? They may have been dirty, they may be blue for the rest of their life. They may have had to get stretched out on a Taffy machine so their proportions look a little odd. They will be forever marked by the mistakes that they made, but ultimately, they still walked out of there all right. And they'll learn something from it and they'll path to it. 

And I think it's important to have people in our lives that allow us to make those mistakes and will help us to pull ourselves out of it. But we also have to understand that when we make mistakes, there are consequences. And some of those consequences are big and they will forever change us. And it's important to be adaptable to those changes. So I do think there is something to be said for that. 

One of the other things that I really love about Willy Wonka that goes with this idea of creating your own reality is that if in the context of Willy Wonka, him creating his own reality was very much like setting boundaries. The real world he did not like. He didn't like how it operated. He really didn't care for it at all. So he created his own reality. But with Willy Wonka, it was also a reality within a reality with a very hard boundary. He created it within this factory. And while this factory was very big,  almost impossibly big, there were these  really hard walls and a gate around it and people couldn't come into it unless he allowed them to. 

And he allowed very few people into that reality and he did it on his own terms. And I think that's an important lesson for us to learn as well is that when we are in trying times, whether personally or on a global level, it's even more important for us to have boundaries and not let people come in and fuck things up for us in our life. 

There are some obstacles that we'll bump up against or some difficult people that we'll bump up against. We don't have a whole lot of choice. We will have to interact with them. But there's also instances in our lives when we can draw a firm lens and say, no, I'm not going to let you into my life. If you're going to be a toxic influence, if you're going to hold me back, if you're going to try to be domineering, if you're just going to be negative all the time, if you're an abusive person, you don't get to come into my safe space. And my safe space is my reality. It may also be your literal space, like your home, your sanctuary, whatever you want to call it. But we need to be able to have the ability to draw that line and say no. 

Because when everybody is struggling the way that we are in the world right now with the economy and the after effects of the pandemic and always being on the verge of war and all of those sorts of things, the levels of stress are so much higher on absolutely everybody. And there is more of a propensity towards negativity and having a shorter fuse. And we may ultimately have to pull away from certain people that are not good for us to be around and to protect ourselves, to protect our sanctuary, our home, to protect our own reality. 

That's not to say you get to completely isolate yourself from the rest of the world and disconnect and isolate from absolutely everybody. But being able to protect your space, to protect your sanity, to protect your peace. That is an important lesson, I think, that we can learn from Willy Wonka that along with creating your own reality, there is that importance of setting those boundaries to protect the sanctity of that reality that you created, because that is your safe space in a world that's gone mad. 

 AUTUMN 

 48:50 

 And right along with that, though, is when you do set those boundaries and you set that firm line or you build that firm wall to keep toxic people out, to guard your resources, to protect yourself or to protect your family or loved ones that are inside of your sanctuary, your safe place you've created. A lot of other people are going to think you're a dick. They're going to think you're maniacal. They're going to think you're insane. They're going to think you're rude or horrible or all of these other things. And that's something that Willy Wonka also took. 

A lot of people thought he was an asshole in many of the adaptations. I feel like a lot of people thought he was an asshole, and he just accepted that. He's like, okay, perceive me as an asshole, but this is still what I'm going to do. This boundary will still be there. 

And I feel like that's an equally important lesson, too, is not just setting the boundary, but accepting the consequences of setting that boundary and being firm enough within yourself and your belief of what you are protecting to take that backlash from the toxic people you're keeping out. 

So, from one Roald Dahl book to another Roald Dahl Book: James and the Giant Peach. And I feel like who we're looking at here, at least from my perspective, is both James and all of the insects. Because when it comes to the pre apocalypse, I would say probably one of the most vital things we all need to learn is basic survival skills. 

I'm sorry. The way society has been set up, they have been dumbing us down and creating a greater distance between us and knowing how to actually live, like how to garden, how to mend clothing, how to do all of these things that are survival skills. And maybe culture isn't going to fully fall apart and we’re not going to have to go back to hunting and gathering or anything like that. But even on a smaller level, inflation is happening. All of us are feeling that squeeze right now. So what happens when you don't have enough money to buy that new shirt that you or your child need to go to work or to school? Well, maybe you're going to have to repair it so that you can make it through so that you can afford the groceries you need. Or if you have a little space or a community garden, what about gardening? That is a skill that many of us don't have or how to can. All of these are things that could potentially help us stretch our paycheck just a little bit further in these hard times. 

And that is one of the reasons I love James and the Giant Peach for the idea of survival skills. Because a lot of people are like, well, he wasn't really a survivalist, he didn't know shit. Well, neither did any of us. But he figured it out. He went on an oceanic journey in a floating peach with a bunch of bugs and managed to survive. He went through all of these obstacles and every time he took what he had around him and he figured out how to make it work. And ultimately, to me, that's the essence of survival skills is being resourceful, taking what you have around you and figuring out how to make it work so that you can keep living and keep moving forward and keep providing for those that you love of. 

 IVY 

 51:47 

Yeah, and I would take that even a step further as far as the lesson that you get from it's not just learning the survival skills, it is being able to learn survival skills under pressure. And also a little bit at a time, which I think goes along with what Autumn is saying. A lot of times when we think about learning survival skills, it feels either really big and overwhelming where it's like, oh, I would have to learn how to do all of these things, how to grow my own food and can my own food and make my own clothes and fix my own car. And that can become very overwhelming if you start looking at it like that. I have to learn all these basic survival skills all at the same time. If you start thinking of it like that, obviously that's going to overwhelm you. 

It's a step-by-step thing. It's like a little bit here and a little bit there, you come up against a problem and you have to find a solution. It is very helpful for us to learn things in smaller segments. And I feel like that is one of the things that I learned from James and the Giant Peach, is that all of the things that they learned when they were being resourceful and having to find solutions, it was all under pressure, but they took it one day at a time. They took it one challenge at a time. They had an ultimate goal of what they were trying to accomplish. And if they just focused on that big goal, which seemed very overwhelming because they didn't have those survival skills and they got too focused on how big that was, that would have been very paralyzing and crippling. But instead, they took the challenges as they came. And I feel like that is how you learn survival and that is how you learn adaptability and how you learn resourcefulness is taking the challenges as they come.

And I think that's one of the most important lessons that we learned from James and the Giant Peach is to not get overwhelmed by the big picture, have a general idea of what it is that you're trying to accomplish, but then take it bite sized chunks and figure it out as you go. And don't be afraid when the pressure gets put on you. Take that as an opportunity for growth and to learn more. Because being able to do things under pressure is also a skill set that we develop by doing things under pressure over time.

AUTUMN

 53:55

 And that is precisely one of the reasons I love James and the Giant Peach, because I feel like it's really relatable for almost well, a lot of us, if you're listening to this, most likely. Where you came from an extremely horrible, traumatic environment where you learned nothing necessary to life. You just got thrown into it like a peach rolling down a hill into the ocean. And then from there on, it was just crisis after crisis after crisis. Because I don't know about you, but I feel like that's been my life for a long, long time. And so I love that idea of not only do you come from having no skill sets, but you also come from having no skill sets and being screwed over with trauma and mental health issues and all these other things, trying to operate, and all of these crises are happening. But you can still learn how to do these and how to survive. 

Because I feel like that is one of the reasons why I didn't want to choose any of these apocalyptic characters was because they're all ex-marines or some four-year-old that was kidnapped from their home and has been learning taekwondo since that age. Yes, so of course they're badasses. They've been trained in it. But there's a lot of us that are just like James. Who aren't badasses. We were raised by crazy or cruel people. We're not given the skills we need, and we're thrown in way over our heads and yet we can still make it. And so I love the hope that James provides. 

And one of the other things that James and the Giant Peach provides, which will tie directly into our next set of characters that we're going to be talking about, is the idea that you don't have to do everything on your own. Just like with James. It wasn't just James in that peach. There were all of these other critters there, so he didn't have to learn how to create silk and shoot it out of his ass because Miss Spider was there and she had that skill set. So even though that was something he literally could not figure out how to make his body do, it was okay. And so for a lot of us that are neurodivergent and we do come up against these things where we say, you know what? This is a real limit. I am not capable of doing this, and this is a skill that I will need to survive. It's okay if you don't know if you can find other people that do. 

And that ties into our next character, which is the one I mentioned in my Fact of the Day, which is Captain Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly, and in my mind, the whole crew of Firefly. And that is the concept of finding your network, finding your people, whatever you call them, and drawing them close and utilizing them. 

Because, like I said with my Fact of the Day, again, I am not a balanced person. And I feel like a lot of us that are neurodivergent are not overall balanced people. That's not necessarily a bad thing. And that's where that network comes into play, when you can start reaching out and opening yourself up to finding people that are as unbalanced and unhinged as you are, but in slightly different ways that complement you. 

I am not in a relationship with somebody that's exactly like me because neither he or I would be functioning at all, because we would both have this set of skills and nobody would have this other set. And so between he and I, we make an excellent team because he knows shit and can do shit that I can't, and vice versa. And so I love that idea, both of James and the Giant Peach, but the whole idea of Firefly. Of having all of these people that have unique sets of skills, unique interests, unique personalities that are very in a lot of ways asymmetrical and contradictory, but necessary to make the whole group function and to keep that whole group moving forward and being healthier than any of them could ever hope to be on their own. 

IVY

 57:40 

One issue that I have with both James and the Giant Peach and the crew of Firefly is that they represent something that is a massive struggle for me to even want to work on, and that is being able to work well with others, which is an important lesson to learn. That is one of the ways in which have Cheshire catted my way through life, finding loopholes and workarounds. I fucking hate working as a team. I am not a team-oriented person. I will go way out of my way. I will do way more work than necessary just to avoid having to work with other people. It's yet another reason I chose the profession that I did, because it's a relatively solitary profession. You barely even see your coworkers. 

I will admit that it is important to learn how to work well with others. It is an issue that I have. But it is an important lesson to learn, and there is a lot to be learned about that from both James and the Giant Peach and the crew of Firefly. Because, yes, all of those characters are very different. And there may be moments when they bicker and fight, when they disagree about how something should be done. But when push comes to shove, they do combine their skill sets to create a better outcome than any of them could have created on their own. 

It is very, very difficult for those of us who are hyper independent to accept that there may be times when it would benefit us to work well with others. Honestly. It's another way in which being with Kelvin has been really a positive experience for me, because our skill sets do really complement each other. He is good at all of the things that I am not, and learning to lean on him for help with those things has been very challenging for me. But it has also been very beneficial for me because it takes a stress off my shoulders, and also because by being with him and around him and just learning from watching him or learning from him, explaining things, it has increased my competency level. And I have learned a lot of really valuable skill sets from being with him. 

I learned to accept that I don't know everything, and it's okay for me to not know everything. And I'm not strong in every skill set. And it's okay to lean on another person and to get feedback from them and to take criticism from them when it is actually constructive. And it helps you improve your skill sets and improve your level of competency. I am a much more confident person and a much more competent person as a result of being with Kelvin for the last five years. I am not nearly as fearful in a lot of ways of the world as I was before we got together, because I have learned so much from just being in his presence and working with him as our skill sets have complemented each other. I don't have every skill set under the sun, and I am not magical, and I'm not a superhuman. I'm not a demigod. And chances are you are not either. So being able to work with others is very valuable as an experience and as a skill set in and of itself. Being able to work as a team is a fucking skill, man. It really is. 

 AUTUMN 

 61:00 

 Teamwork is definitely a skill. And that is one of the reasons I love Firefly as this idea of finding people, drawing close, networking or even teamwork. Because if you watched the show Firefly specifically, to me, they're not really traditional teamwork. James and the Giant Peach is like, yay, we're all going to work together to make this work, and that’s not what Firefly was to me. All of them, for the most part, are extremely hyper independent people, even to the point like the companion, which is kind of how I've always seen you Ivy, completely different ship, has her own life, isn't even part of the crew, but she's there, she's doing her own thing, completely separate And then randomly they're like, oh, we need to get into this party, or know this person that you happen to know. And you can provide that open doorway for them, you provide that knowledge that they need, even though you're not part of the team, so to speak. 

And that's one of the reasons I've always loved Firefly, is because these are a bunch of hyper independent people that for the most part, a lot of them fucking suck at being team players because that is not what they are. And they're allowed to be these independent people that make decisions that don't work on a team, but it still manages to work together, because when push comes to shove, they all have the necessary skills to keep it going. And then over time, just like with Ivy and Kelvin, they slowly learn to trust other people enough to be able to be part of that crew or part of that team. 

And that's one of the reasons I love Firefly, because I think there are a lot of us out there, even if we're not hyper independent like Ivy, we are hyper mistrustful. And that is part of what teamwork is, is opening yourself up to vulnerability and trusting. And just jumping into James and the Giant Peach level of trust is not something we're capable of. But just being our own unique, crazy, barbed self, doing our independent thing is something we can do. But when we do that next to people that make sense for our world. We somehow just managed to start working well together even though we didn't intend to ever be part of a team. 

 IVY 

 63:16 

 Yeah, I didn't think about that part. But there is something to be said for that in terms of kind of finding or building your own tribe. You really do want to look for people that actually fit well with your vibe. It's not just about finding good people or kind people or people with specific skill sets that complement your own. It's not just about that. It's also important when you are finding your people, when you're drawing them close, when you're building that tribe to make sure that you're on the same page energetically and that you are able to mesh well together from a personality standpoint as well. 

Because, yeah, I am not somebody who could ever live on a commune where everybody hangs out together, has all their meals together, spends all their time together. I could never do that, which is probably one of the things that will save me from ever being part of a cult. I am really not a team player. I am not a commune kind of person. But I do in some ways have my own little tribe and they are all people who are incredibly independent and very strong willed and we don't spend a lot of time together. 

In fact, most of the people that are part of my tribe are people that live thousands of miles away from me that I almost never get to see and who, honestly, I don't even get a chance to talk to very much. And yet I never feel completely alone in this world because I do have my own tribe of people, even though they're not a daily part of my life. I know that they're there and they know that I'm here for them. We do all of those things that go into being part of a team without actually having to be all up in each other's grill all the time. 

So, yeah, that is a really good point that Autumn makes there is that you don't have to be the James and the Giant Peach style of team. You don't have to be part of a commune where everybody gets along and it's this big happy family sort of thing. You can still be an independent person and find people that work well with you, that you care about, that don't have to be in your business all the time.

 AUTUMN 

 65:34 

Exactly! It's really finding that mutually beneficial on all levels. And I think if you do find a network and they expect you to be a team player when you're not, or they expect you to make these big, drastic changes that are not part of who you are or your personality or something you're capable of. Quite possibly those aren't necessarily the people that you need during the pre apocalypse. Or possibly at all. 

All right, so let's move on to another character. And this is, I would say, a good skill to have anyways, especially given the way the world is going, and that is prepping. And the character we want to highlight for this is Calvin, and this was a character played by Christopher Walken in a little gem of a movie, I believe, from the 1990s called Blast from the Past. And Ivy's a lot more familiar with this movie, so I'm going to let her talk all about Calvin. 

 IVY 

 66:37 

Man, I watched so many romantic comedies from the early 2000’s, and this one was one of my absolute favorites. And while Calvin is a kind of secondary character, he is the father of the main character, who's played by Brendan Fraser. What I love most about Calvin is that he really took prepping to a whole nother level. Was he a little bit kooky? Yes. A little bit of a conspiracy theorist? Yes. But it did literally save him and his family's life. 

He was expecting nuclear fallout. That did not happen. But because he was prepared,  his family was able to survive a plane crashing into their house. He thought a nuclear war had started, but he had a bunker prepared. Granted, they were stuck in that bunker for 30 years, because that's when he was anticipating things would be safe. But he had everything figured out. He built an entire replica, essentially, of their house underground. He had 30 years’ worth of food stocked. He had 30 years’ worth of clean water. He had the whole shebang. He had everything set up. 

And he also taught his son every skill he thought would be important for his son to know. He taught him how to play baseball, he taught him how to cook, he taught him how to build things, how to dance, how to do pretty much everything. Every skill set that he himself had, he taught his son because he didn't know what skills his son would need to know, and he wanted to make sure he was well equipped. 

And I think there's so many important lessons to be learned from this character, even though, yes, he seemed crazy to everybody else, and on some levels, he was kind of kooky and crazy, but he wanted to make sure that he and his family, his loved ones, would be cared for. And so he went above and beyond to prepare for every situation that he possibly could so that he could protect them, and also so he could raise his son up right. 

Essentially, the lesson here is not just for us as individuals. I think the lesson there is also good for parents the importance of teaching your children as much as you possibly can. Keep learning yourself so that you can prepare your children for whatever world it is that we're passing on to them. Prepare your children for pretty much any challenges that they might face and just help them to discover the world and develop that sense of curiosity and that desire to keep learning as well. 

I think there's so much to be learned from this kooky character when it comes to preparing for catastrophes, but also preparing the next generation to do better than our generation or better than the previous generations, because the world really needs that right now. There's a lot of pretty daunting and scary things that the next generation is going to face. And I think it's really important for us, even those of us who aren't parents, to set the example for the younger generation. And help them so that they will be better equipped to create a better world. We can't undo the damage that has been done to this world, but we can help prepare the next generation to do better and to be better equipped to deal with the challenges that they face.

 AUTUMN 

 69:33 

And I would say not even just preparing the next generation, but to some degree preparing this generation. Like Ivy said at the beginning, a lot of us that have gone through that trauma, that are neurodivergent, that have had mental health struggles, we have a lot of unique sets of skills right now that a lot of neurotypical, people that were raised in healthy environments, that have not had to deal with this kind of stress, do not have. We now have the potential to offer these lessons to other people that are looking. I mean, we have a lot of skills already that we can help pass forward. 

And I do think just prepping in general as well is a good idea, though it's going to be very difficult because like I said, with inflation, a lot of us are having a hard time even just getting the groceries we need for that week. But anything you can do to start storing up a little bit of any resource is a good idea, whether that is a couple of extra bottles of water or cans of green beans or whether that's a little bit emotional of wherewithal because you chose not to participate in this activity that week. So now you have energy to do something else. Any way that you can start looking at saving some of those resources so that you can use them better and use them in those emergencies and those crises is great. And then like Ivy said, giving those lessons that we have and helping the next generation or even this generation deal with stuff they've never had to deal with before. 

Okay, so let's go ahead and move on to our next pre apocalyptic buddy here. And this one may seem a little bit of an odd choice, but Inigo Montoya from Princess Bride. So this character throughout the whole movie is essentially really trying to find the person that killed his father so that he can kill that person. And you're like, wow, that's a little off track for surviving the pre apocalypse, isn't it? Go on a vengeance quest. But actually, more of the thought we were thinking here was finding a purpose. 

Finding a purpose is important. Finding a reason to keep going, to keep moving, to keep living. And yes, a death wish for somebody else is probably not the most positive purpose to have. But sometimes when we are having our own mental health struggles, when the world outside of us looks so bleak and we feel like we're on the brink of World War Three and everything is falling apart and what is even the reason to get out of bed, to keep going, to stay in this life? Sometimes any reason is a good reason. And maybe that is being bitter about something that somebody did to you and just surviving out of spite to prove them wrong. 

 IVY 

 72:09 

 On a broader scale, if you take it outside of the context of the movie and the death wish that he had for the man who killed his father, I think we could look at it also as this idea of overcoming and conquering something. For those of us anyway, who have experienced a lot of trauma, we've had mental health issues. That is a big part of why we keep going: to overcome, to conquer our demons, to fight back against the abuse that we experienced before, to survive that trauma and keep going and keep pushing. And I think in some ways it's much the same way for Inigo Montoya. 

Yes, he was trying to get vengeance for his father, but I don't think it was just that simple. I think part of him was trying to conquer and overcome this big scary demon. That for him was grief and loss. Granted, that's not an excuse to go around killing people, but I think in the bigger picture, that's really what he was trying to do. He was trying to overcome that trauma that he experienced. 

And this is one of the areas where I feel like we do have an advantage as neurodivergent people, as people who are recovering from trauma, because we have, most of us have in our journey, we have that purpose of conquering and overcoming. And I think one of the things that is important here too, is that once Inigo got his vengeance, he didn't just give up on life. He didn't exactly know what he wanted to do next, but he was ready to move on to the next challenge. He was ready to find his next purpose. 

And I think that shows some adaptability that's important for us as well is that a lot of us spent so many years and are still spending so many years trying to work through our previous issues, trying to mitigate the damage be trauma that we experience trying to work with our mental health and figure out how to balance that in our lives and how to function. We've spent a lot of time working on those things. And so we are used to having a purpose, but we also need to be able to have adaptability when it comes to that purpose. We have to be able to adapt to the new challenges that arise. 

The things that I was fighting for, fighting against a few years ago are not the same things that I am working on now because I did put so much effort and I did fight so hard and I did conquer a lot of those things and I did achieve a lot of those goals. And so now I'm shifting my focus onto other things. Being able to adapt our purpose is incredibly important. And I think that's especially important now that the world that we're living in a world that feels very different than it did, say, a decade ago. 

There's a lot of changes that have happened just in these last few years that are deeply challenging for everyone and that has required a lot of us to shift our focus. And being able to adapt in that way, that's an important thing for us to be able to do. And I think that's another one of those lessons that we can learn from Inigo is that, yeah, he spent his whole life searching for this man so that he could get vengeance. And he did get his vengeance. He achieved that goal, but he didn't just say, okay, well, I've done that now. Now I'm going to stop caring about anything because the thing I've been working my whole life for, okay, well, I did that. He immediately started looking for the next goal, for the next purpose, for the next journey, for the next adventure. And I think we could all stand to do that.

 AUTUMN 

 75:39 

 I would say also with this particular idea that a lot of us have an advantage over other individuals who have lived a relatively healthy life, who haven't had to deal with the amount of stress or trauma we've had because we have had to decide what our purpose is. We've had to make a conscious choice. So many of us at some point or multiple points in our journey have had to sit down and make a conscious choice to stay here to find a purpose. So we know how to do that. It is something that we are well versed in doing because we've had to make that conscious choice and a lot of people haven't. And so that's, again, one of those skills, I think, both that adaptability and purpose and just even being able to find a purpose that we can maybe help offer other people, because we've been down that road, we know how to do that. Now, we have the opportunity to be able to help other people with that which in and of itself may become part of our new purpose. 

So let's go ahead and look at a different character. And the world this character comes from actually wouldn't be considered fantastical or surreal. It would be a very real world to some degree, especially considering the whole hoopla about possibly that the government said there actually are aliens here in the last week or so. And that is Fox Mulder from The X-Files. And I think one of the great lessons that he teaches us is to not doubt ourselves. 

Because it's so easy to do just that. Being neurodivergent, being different, having had trauma and being invalidated for years upon years. For so many of us, doubt is just part of our nature now and it's taken a lot of us a long time and some of us are still learning to even believe and trust in ourselves. And a lot of times we feel like we are crazy, the world is right, we are wrong, we are insane and we can definitely feel that. But now more than ever, we need to start believing in ourself and we need to start believing in our reality and validating our emotions and our thoughts and our beliefs. 

And I think this is something where Fox Mulder from the X-Files really steps up to that because he is insane and wacko and the conspiracy theorist and the laughingstock of the FBI yet again and again and again he was proven right. And if I remember the series well, because it was quite a while since I've actually seen this, his information and his knowledge and his belief in these ideas which many times turned out to be true within this episode, ended up not only saving him, but saving others. They didn't just solve the case, they literally saved lives because he was able to believe in himself. 

And I do think, especially during these stressful times, that that is a possibility. That our ability to believe in ourself, believe in our reality, to validate our own emotions and thoughts could potentially be life saving. Not just for us, but for other people as well. 

IVY 

 78:47 

I've always really loved the character of Fox Mulder. I relate to him in a lot of ways and I really love that he's so strong in his convictions. I have a lot of respect for people who stand firm in their convictions even when they do get challenged. I mean, it is important to be able to shift and change our views and perspectives as we receive new information. It's not good to just completely dig in your heels and be stuck in your ways and refuse to see anything outside of what you believe we should stay open. But at the same time, I think it is really important to be able to stand firm in your convictions and it's not something that everybody is able to mean. 

One of the things that I really did like about the character of Fox Mulder is like yeah, he was a laughingstock of the FBI. He essentially got shoved down into a basement and everybody kind of made fun of him and disregarded him. But he never stopped believing in the things that he believed in. And even when he wasn't sure if he was right and he wasn't always right, and we don't always know if we are right about something because answers aren't always clear cut and direct, but even with that, even when his views were challenged, even when he wasn't right, he still  never really stopped believing in things like the paranormal. He never stopped believing in the experiences that he was having. He never stopped learning. He never completely just disregarded something because other people thought it was crazy or even if he didn't necessarily believe in it initially. 

And while he did have his moments of self-doubt, he always overcame that. He was very steady and firm in himself, his sense of self, his identity, his reality, his belief system, regardless of what consequences that had for him. And like Autumn said, because he was able and willing to do that, he was also able to not only solve cases or solve problems, he did save people's lives. He did open people's perspectives. I mean, from the beginning of the series to the end of the series, Scully was a completely different person. She went in completely skeptical of everything, not happy about being stuck with this whack job. And then over time, through the experiences she was having and the time that she spent with him, she had to change her perspective as well. And I think that's a gift that we have as neurodivergent people and people who have experienced trauma. 

Our worldview is different. And when we are not afraid to be authentically ourselves, we have so much potential to benefit other people as well. I think it also acts as a catalyst for the people around us to see things in a different way. I strongly believe that neurodivergent people and people who have experience trauma when they encounter other people and they have the ability to touch another person's life, that person is forever changed by the interaction that they have with a neurodivergent person or a person who's experienced a trauma and has worked hard to recover from it. We have the capacity in some ways to change the world. Maybe not on a big scale, but it's that butterfly effect thing. 

The interactions that we have with other people, it does leave an impression, and it causes people to question their views. It causes people to question their reality. It causes them to question what they thought they knew about how people are and what people are like and what they think and how they operate. We just, by existing, challenge the realities of a lot of people. And I feel like Fox Mulder kind of exemplifies that, especially in his interactions with Scully. Yeah, for a large part of the rest of the FBI, maybe he was always a laughingstock, but he changed Scully's life. He changed her entire view on the world and on herself. That is what we do. We change people just by interacting with them. I think, honestly, that that is a skill that we have to be a harbinger of change in the world, even if it's only on a small scale. 

 AUTUMN 

 82:47 

 And I would even say that that idea of being a harbinger of change is so critical right now because pre apocalypse or not, we are seeing hatred being written into law. We are seeing people being stripped of their fundamental rights over their body. We are being told that it's totally okay to keep taking all of these resources from the earth even though it's causing horrible changes, that we are all feeling the impact of., We are being gaslighted, that all of this is okay and acceptable and just business as usual when we know it's not. And if we, with that skill set that have the ability to be that harbinger of change, to bring about a change in mindset, even if it's of one person are able to be firm in our beliefs and bring that change about to one person and or another person and have that butterfly effect happen, maybe we can start affecting society positively so we can see some of these laws being reversed, so we aren't having hatred being legalized. So we can take back the rights of our own body, so we can start possibly preserving the slim chance that humanity can survive on this planer. 

Now, one of the things that Ivy also touched on was that idea of we do need to reach out and not be that closed loop, essentially. Which I feel like a lot of us are at danger of being that closed loop, especially with social media being set up how it is because so many of us do get our information from social media. And those social media accounts are set up with algorithms to feed us what we want to see, which only then furthers the beliefs that we had and doesn't really open us up to anything. And so that idea of being able to connect to others, I feel, is very vital. 

But I will say also, this is something that I extremely struggle with because the world is an unsafe place to me and talking with other humans is exhausting to me. And I have so few resources. And so the idea of reaching out and participating in the world, it seems overwhelming. Honestly, even in my good days it seems overwhelming, but with the added stress of what's happening, it's that much more overwhelming. And so one of the characters that I turn to for this idea of connecting outward and trying to kind of interact with the world to some degree is Amelie. 

And this is a French movie, which if you haven't seen it, you've got to see this movie. It's a wonderful, cute, adorable, kind of French, definitely artsy little movie, but it has a lot of good ideas in it. And one of those is that idea of being able to reach out and connect with people around you in almost a sideways or passive way. It doesn't always have to be going straight up to somebody and having a conversation.

Because one of the things that Amalie does throughout this movie is she notices the world around her. She is very much an observer and not so much an actor. And so how she starts reaching out is enacting small, little changes in the environment to create positive change for those people around her. Because even though she is an observer, she does some degree care about these other people and she does want to affect their life and she does want to interact with them, but she doesn't yet have the ability to do that directly. And so she finds ways to do this indirectly. 

And I love that concept of not just having to, I guess, talk to someone, because sometimes that's how simple it is, is I want to interact and I want to be a part of people's life, but I don't always have the mental health resources to do that. 

 IVY 

 86:29 

There's a lot of things that I love about Amelie that character appeals to me so much because I am somebody that struggles with meeting people and talking to people and just interacting with the world outside. Which a lot of the reason why Amelie operates the way that she does is because she is very shy and she doesn't know how to interact with people, and that seems very intimidating to her. And so she finds creative ways to connect to the outside world. Creative ways not only to connect, but to improve the world around her. 

Because the thing that makes her special in how she interacts is that it's less of a direct impact, less of a direct connection, direct interaction, and more of a facilitating. She facilitates change. She creates circumstances in an atmosphere where the change can occur. She is driven by this desire for connection, but also this desire to improve the lives of others and to bring joy to people. And she's very creative about the way that she does it, finds all these indirect ways to improve the lives of the people around her without them even knowing that she's doing these things. 

But what ultimately happens is that she doesn't just affect change in other people's lives. She also ultimately ends up changing her own life. Because since she is trying to find these indirect ways to do acts of good for other people, it requires her to go outside of her own comfort zone. It requires her to have conversations with people she wouldn't have had conversations with otherwise to do these anonymous acts of kindness. And through doing that, she has to push through her own self imposed boundaries. And by pushing through those self imposed boundaries, she ultimately ends up forming a social circle. And she does form real, genuine connections that she never realized she would be able to form. And it ultimately ends up changing her life as well. 

And I love that idea because I really struggle myself with direct connection and direct interaction. So this idea of trying to do good behind the scenes and pushing myself past my self imposed limitations so that I can benefit others, that ultimately ends up benefiting me as well, because it does cause me to develop new skill sets. It does force me outside of my comfort zone. It does force me to connect more with the world. Which ultimately benefits me as much as it benefits the people around me. So I love that movie and the entire premise behind it because it is mutually beneficial. 

And I think that that is an important thing to take note of here because a lot of people who experience a significant trauma and a lot of people who are neurodivergent, they end up being people pleasers, they end up putting themselves on the back burner. They end up sacrificing themselves for the benefit of other people. And that ultimately, even though you may be helping those other people, it hurts you to do that. There's no exchange there. You aren't receiving anything from it. 

And our society tries to act as though we should be altruistic all the time, and it makes you a shitty person if you want anything in exchange for doing something good or being kind to another person or having a relationship with this other person. Society acts as though we should be self-sacrificing and altruistic all the time and never expecting any benefit. And I'm sorry, but that's fucking stupid. How is that ultimately beneficial? 

If it is not mutually beneficial for everybody involved, that means somebody is being harmed in that. That means somebody is having to constantly self-sacrifice. It means somebody is always losing out and that's not the way it has to be. Our connection to the world can be mutually beneficial, and on some level we should expect it to be. It's not always quid pro quo. Sometimes you give a lot right now and then that other person gives back to you in other ways later on. But I don't think that it's healthy for us to only self-sacrifice, to only put ourselves on the back burner in order to do good for other people. 

And that's why I love the story of Amelie because it ends up being something that benefits everyone and that is how things should operate. And I feel like that is a big part of what is missing in our world. 

 AUTUMN 

 90:56 

 I think another thing that society encourages us is that there's only a few ways to make change. You have to contribute financially to this particular organization, or you have to volunteer, or you have to get out on the picket line, or go to the protest, or do all of these specific things that are very big things. There are a lot of investment for those of us that are neurodivergent. And so I also like that about Amelie. It's about accepting those neurodivergent parts of you and know it's okay to follow your quirks. And even with those quirks, or maybe because of those quirks, as opposed to in spite of those quirks, you can make changes around you and within yourself by following your own path and following your own heart. And so I think that's another good lesson too, is that it's okay to be quirky and neurodivergent and diverge from the normal path and you can still make positive changes. 

Now the next character on our list is also a woman and she's a little bit quirky as well. This one is Coraline. And of course I love just about anything Neil Gaiman does, but I especially loved Coraline, especially the movie that was made out of that. And one of the lessons that Coraline really helps to teach us is to learn from our mistakes. 

And this one, I feel, is a very hard balance for a lot of us that are on this healing journey, because we do spend so much of our time being invalidated and told we're wrong. And then we try to believe in ourselves and establish our emotions and our thoughts and our beliefs, and we fight for them, and we fight for our choices because we know they're right. And then circumstances change or we didn't have all the information, then it turns out we're wrong. And it's really hard to admit that. It's really hard to admit you are wrong when you have fought for something so hard or when you have been told all your life that you're wrong, because it feels like you're just proving them right, and that's not the case at all. 

You can still believe in yourself and be strong in yourself and fight for yourself and still be open to admitting your mistakes. And that's really what I like about Coraline, is she doesn't change. She doesn't give in. She doesn't know everybody was right - I was just this silly little girl that doesn't know anything. She still believes in herself, but she still admits that the choice she was trying to make in joining this new family and escaping into this realm was not going to be a good one for her. And that doesn't make her wrong. It just means that she's growing and what she wants changed and the information that she have and the perspective she had changed. And I love that idea that admitting your mistakes is just part of growth and part of having an open mind and being open to new things. 

IVY 

 94:07 

 One of the things that I really like about Coraline, too, is that not only is she able and willing to admit her mistakes, but then she goes on to actively fight for what she needs and what she wants and what she knows is the right choice moving forward. Because a lot of times when we make mistakes, especially if those mistakes have big consequences, it can kind of put us into a state of paralysis. And for those of us who have faced a lot of adversity, who have been abused, who have been traumatized, who have caught a lot of shit for being neurodivergent, we do tend to get down on ourselves, and we are more likely to have these insecurities and to feel unworthy. And so when we do make a mistake, especially if it's got big consequences, we are prone, I think, to falling into the space of, well, I'm not worthy of having good things happen to me. There's something wrong with me. I obviously don't deserve to have good things happen for me. So I guess this mistake is just further proof of how broken.  I am fucked up. I give up. I guess I'll just live this way forever, because this is all I deserve. 

And I think one of the things that we can learn from Coraline is not to do that. Making a mistake - not only does that not necessarily mean that you're wrong, making a mistake also does not mean that you are unworthy of having good things. It does not mean that you are unworthy of having another chance. And I think that is one of the most important things for us to learn. It's not only about being able to accept your mistakes and acknowledge them and make peace with them. It's also about being able to strive and fight and move forward towards something better. 

And I think one of the other lessons that we can learn from Coraline as well is to not fall into the trap of the grass is greener. Because I think that is something that humans, as a rule, are prone to. But I think we are especially prone to that if we are somebody who, like Autumn and I, grew up in a really dysfunctional home. You have this really abusive family, and it's so easy to fall into that trap of thinking, if I had only had a more supportive family, I would have been better off in a lot of ways. I would be a better person. I wouldn't have all these issues. Life would be easier for me. It's so easy for us to fall into that trap of the grass is greener. People whose lives were safer, who had more advantages, who had more resources. It's easy for us to fall into this trap of thinking that their life is amazing and wonderful and great and they don't have any problems. 

That's not realistic because everyone has problems. Even if you grow up really sheltered and you have all of these resources and you have all of this support and you have all of this love, that doesn't make you immune to problems, it's so easy for us to see the advantages that other people have without recognizing the advantages that we have. Yeah, our circumstances suck. Yeah. It's hard to be neurodivergent. Yeah it’s shitty to have mental health problems. But because of that, we've had to adapt. We've had to be resourceful. We've had to develop all these skills other people don't have that are really valuable right now. 

Because during this period of time when everything in the world is just in this state of upheaval and there's so much stress, even people who have never had issues with their mental health like they're having them now. And they're at a disadvantage in that sense because they don't have those skill sets because they never had to develop them. We are better equipped to get through challenging times because the times for us have always been challenging. And so I think that puts us at an advantage in a lot of ways. And it's important for us to not just see the grasses as being greener on the other side. That maybe everything up to this point was not just one big mistake with no positive outcome, that we can determine our outcome in a lot of ways and we can determine our perspectives in a lot of ways.

 AUTUMN 

 97:29 

 So now let's go ahead and switch up to the next character we're going to be talking about. And this is Stitch from Lilo and Stitch, the great, wonderful Disney movie, which is absolutely adorable. But one of the things that happens for a lot of us that came from traumatic environments, especially childhood trauma, is we were assigned a role, a very rigid role. That's actually one of the fundamental trademarks of dysfunctional family is rigid roles. And you were assigned to be the Golden Child or the Scapegoat or whatever it happens to be. And a lot of us end up unintentionally and unaware, repeating this cycle in our relationships and with our coworkers, because we don't understand that role. But once we actually learn, like, oh, this is how I was treated as a Scapegoat, and when they do this, I respond as that, which makes them respond. And we see how we keep recreating these roles and we're able to change and make healthier choices because the environment is now different. 

As things are getting shittier in the world, I feel like in a lot of ways, the world is becoming closer to that traumatic home we came from, which means in my mind, that world is getting a lot closer to where that initial role made sense for us. And even though that role made sense, it wasn't necessarily a healthy one or a good one. And so I feel like during these times especially, it is vital to figure out what role were you assigned in your family, what role were you given in that trauma, and then to make a conscious choice about whether or not you're willing to fulfill that role now. 

Which is why I love the idea of Stitch, because he was literally created to be a monster, to spread mayhem and chaos and to destroy. That was everything he was designed to be. And he knew this and he'd learned this. And then he had to come to a point of, is this who I want to be? Because, yes, he was limited because he was on an island and there were no big cities and he couldn't swim. But if he was really determined, he could have fulfilled that role. He could have found a way to blow up that whole island and killed all of his family and friends because he was a monster and that was the role, and that was what was expected of him and that was how other people treated him. 

But he said you know what, that's not who I want to be. The world may be treating me like that, the society around me may be trying to force me into that role but that's not who I'm going to be. I am going to be family, I am going to be love, I am going to be a friend to this little girl. And he made a conscious choice to be somebody else and I feel like that is very, very vital for us now to decide. 

All my life I was a scapegoat and that the world is becoming traumatic place. That is the role it's trying to push me into. Do I want to be that? Do I want to be the scapegoat, the people pleaser, the golden child or do I want to set my own path before me? And I think that's a choice that we have to confront and decide whether or not we want to be that role regardless of whether society wants us to be that or not. 

IVY 

 100:13 

I would agree with that but I would also add that it's not always necessary for us to reject everything about that role. We may choose to take on a completely different role but we still learned valuable things from the role that we were forced to play and we can still use some of those things to our advantage. That doesn't mean we have to follow it to a T. It doesn't mean that we have to play it the same way that we always have. It doesn't mean that we have to identify as that role at all but we still take valuable things away from that.

As a personal example of that I often felt like the scapegoat in our family and I felt like there was nothing that I could do right at all and that sucks.  That's a really shitty feeling. It is not fun to be a scapegoat. It's not fun to be stuck in any of those roles to be perfectly honest. They all come with their pros and cons.  But being a scapegoat is pretty rough position to be in. But what I have taken from that now as an adult is that since I couldn't do anything right, well, then I'm just going to do things my own way. 

If I'm not going to be right anyway, okay, well then I guess I'm just going to do it my own way. I'll choose to be happy by my own standards. I'll make my own mistakes. I'll deal with those consequences myself. I will choose to be happy on my own terms. I'm not going to be able to please you anyway, so why should I keep trying to get your approval? 

It sucks to be stuck in those roles and dysfunctional families, but there are always good things to be taken from it. And we can utilize some of those things to our advantage. And I think that is another lesson for us to take from that in knowing your role and choosing your role. You can choose to step outside of that role that you are forced to play. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to or even should reject everything that came from that role. Because I guarantee you, you will still find things in those experiences that you had playing that role that you can use to your advantage and you can benefit from now. You can turn the tables on it. You can flip the script to your own advantage and use the tools that you developed in that role that you did not want to play so that you can be the lead in the story of your life. 

 AUTUMN 

 102:47 

 Which, again, I feel Stitch is a perfect example of that. Because when he goes I am going to be part of this family and I'm going to love this little girl. I'm going to love Lilo and stand by her. He didn't say, Well, now I can't use any of my powers that I was as a monster because I'm not a monster anymore. He still used those powers fully to now do good things, to now be that new person he wanted to be. So just because we choose a different role and choose to be a different person or choose to be flexible in who we are instead of just rigidly assign ourselves a particular role, that doesn't mean we have to give up everything. It means we get to choose and pick who we want to be and what strengths and skills we want to play towards. 

Now when it comes towards trauma, because a lot of us have some sort of trauma history if you're listening to this, a great character is Sally in The Nightmare Before Christmas. And she is excellent for these preapocalyptic times because she really helps us see how we can use our trauma training, if you want to call that. 

Now, I'm not a big fan of the idea your trauma made you stronger or all of this other stuff that gets put on you. But I do feel like we went through basic training for a lot of fucking bullshit and a lot of stress and a lot of really bad things. And we survived them. And because of that, we now have a lot of skills, whether or not we want them. 

Tell you what. The world, like I said, is feeling more and more traumatic. It's feeling more and more like a dysfunctional place to be. But if you've been through trauma, we know how to play this. We know how to manipulate things. We know how to people, please. We know how to walk on eggshells. We know how to do the things necessary to survive these tougher times. And with the skills we've learned on our healing journey and the progress we've made. We can combine these with the skills we learned during our trauma in order to be healthier now and to help protect ourselves and ensure that we can continue to grow in a positive manner and take care of ourselves. 

IVY 

 104:38 

I find that there's a lot of correlations between the character of Sally for the Nightmare Before Christmas and her circumstances - there's a lot of correlation between that and dysfunctional families and dysfunctional home life which may not be maybe, readily apparent on the surface. But she's essentially trapped in this home with the person who created her. And we could draw that as a parallel with being trapped in a home with an abusive parent. Oh, I made you, and so now I own you kind of thing, because that was pretty much the circumstance that she was stuck in. She was trapped in this prison of a home with this person who believed that they owned her and could do anything that they wanted to her and with her, could demand anything from her because they made her. And so now she was property to them. 

There's also this aspect of parentification, in a sense, because, yeah, well, I created you, and now you are responsible for me, because that's what the doctor expected of her, was to be his caretaker, essentially do everything for him. And there's also this aspect of an inappropriate relationship with the parental figure as her creator that makes him, in a sense, a father figure to her. And yet he was also trying to have sort of this romantic relationship with her as well. 

And so I feel like there's a lot of correlations between this character of Sally and her circumstances with what a lot of us experienced growing up in abusive homes. That feeling of being trapped, of being parentified, of being owned by this person who created you, of having these inappropriate relationships, these kind of enabling and messy, murky relationship dynamics where things aren't clearly defined and there's not clear distinctions between parent and child. I think that we can really look to her and relate to her in some ways as children that grow up in dysfunctional homes. 

And what I love about Sally is that she never completely gives in to that. She recognizes that she's trapped, but she never stops trying to get out of that. She's always trying to set boundaries. She's always finding creative ways to get herself out of that situation. She's always fighting for her independence and her freedom and to distance herself from the trauma, to distance herself from her abuser, in a sense. And she uses some of the training that she got in that trauma to gain that independence. 

She's expected to care for his every need. Okay, well, that means she's making all of his meals. So if she slips a little sleeping potion into his meals, she can get away for a while. She's always looking for ways to establish her independence and set boundaries and find a way out of that bad situation. And then on a broader scale, she also uses the skills that she learned in order to achieve positive outcomes in the world around her. 

Because the world around her goes a little crazy once Jack comes back and he decides Halloween is not going to be Christmas. Instead, she recognizes when everybody else fails to see it, she recognizes how crazy this is, and she recognizes it because she's used to crazy, because she's been living in crazy entire life. And she knows that this is not a good trajectory and she wants to positively influence change. And not everything that she tries works, but she's always trying to use that trauma training to improve the circumstances. And ultimately, she is successful in a lot of ways in that. 

But the thing that I love about Sally is that she uses everything to her advantage, that she learned everything that she has been through, all of her trauma. She has taken the lessons she learned from being trapped in that situation. She's taken that and used it to establish her independence, build a life for herself, and to try to create positive outcomes in a world that she knows is on the wrong trajectory and on the wrong path. She ultimately helps everybody around her to avert disaster and she ultimately does get the independence that she wanted. And I think she is a beautiful example of being able to create the life that we want from ourselves by using the skill sets we learned when we were stuck and powerless. 

 AUTUMN 

 109:07 

 And I feel like for the longest time, a lot of those skill sets didn't make sense because they didn't fit the environment anymore. You're not in trauma, you're not in survival mode. You don't need to be doing this anymore. And so I think so many of us have spent so long learning to stop those or change those or ignore those impulses. But like I said, for a lot of us, the world is becoming more traumatic. For some of us in various circumstances, we are getting back to the point where we are worried about basic survival and safety from a very abusive and violent culture. We're worried about where we're going to be feeding ourselves next. I mean, these are the same worries I had to some degree as a child. And so now maybe those skills that I've been trying to unlearn and ignore and change all this time are something that I can now, like Sally, begin using to my advantage, that we can all begin using to our advantage because we have them. And while those insane skills didn't make much sense in a sane world. Well, they kind of make sense in an insane world, which is what it feels like we're in right now. 

All right, so the very last character we're going to talk about is Alice. And no, not that Alice, because we talked about her at the beginning, but this is Alice from Resident Evil. Now, I will admit I don't know much about the video games, but I have seen most of all the Resident Evil movies. And the big thing about Alice is this she survives. She is a survivor. And no, we are not military bad-asses that have been genetically mutated with some sort of alien experimental virus so that we can be the kind of badass that Alice is. But we have been through our own shit and we are survivors, we may have moved on to the point where we are also thrivers, but before that we survived. 

And I think that is one of the biggest lessons to really look to and to acknowledge in ourselves that we are like Alice. No matter what the world throws at us, no matter what kind of calamity strikes, no matter if the entire civilization falls apart and zombies are unleashed and corporations are trying to hunt us down, we will survive. Because that is what we do and that is what we know how to do. And that is a choice that we can make: to survive. 

 IVY 

 111:28 

 I think the note that I would make on this point - and I also have not played the video games, I've watched a few of the movies and I don't have a great memory, so it's a little hazy for me - but I do remember Alice being a very badass character. And while a lot of times we do not feel badass, I would also say that what we feel is not always what we are. 

Does it suck that we had to become resilient? Does it suck that we had to be strong? Does it suck that we had to be calm under crisis? Yeah, all of those things suck. But they are also part of us now as a result of what we have been through and what we have survived. And I know that there's a lot of stuff out there right now, people being upset about that idea of like, well, it made you stronger. See that as a silver lining. It made you stronger. 

I have a very conflicted relationship with this because on the one hand, yeah, it sucks that I had to be strong. But at the same time, I am incredibly proud of how strong I am now capable of being, of how resilient and resourceful and adaptable I am now capable of being. And I am, even if I don't feel like it all the time, I am a badass. There is that part of me that is capable of being hard edged. There is that part of me that feels confident that if shit hits the fan, I will find a way to survive if I choose to. 

Because I have survived up to this point and I have been through enough things now by this point in my life that I know that I have that capacity for survival and I know that I have that drive to survive. I know I have those instincts for survival. And because I know all of those things, because I have seen for myself and experience for myself that those things are true. I am less fearful of the chaos and the madness and the violence and the danger and the uncertainty in this world. Because while the world may be collapsing around me, I still feel that I am standing tall and I am standing strong, sometimes by choice and sometimes because it's just what's necessary and required of me. 

And just because it sucks that we've had to be strong and had to be resilient and resourceful and adaptable and all of those things that it was forced upon us. That part sucks. But I don't want to spend my life being resentful of the fact that I had to develop those skill sets. Those are valid things to feel. But I also don't want to invalidate all of the hard work that I put in to becoming stronger and resilient and adaptable and resourceful. So for me, that's what Alice represents is that even though I don't feel like a hard ass and I don't have all this military training and all of that, there is still that part of me that is a scrapper. There is still that part of me that is a fighter. That part of me that always survives even if it's out of spite. And I am proud of that part of me. 

I don't necessarily want to be that hard edged all the time, but I am proud of that part of me that is that part of me that's capable of it, that part of me that withstands every storm that comes my way. It doesn't make me immune to the shittiness in the world, but it makes me better equipped to deal with it. And I am proud of that fact. Because it's not just that it was forced on me, because there are tons of people that have horrible things forced upon them, and they don't make it. They don't survive it. They do give up. They do lose hope, they don't make it through, they don't survive. The fact that I and Autumn and all of us listening have survived these things, that is something to be proud of. 

That is not just circumstance and it's not just force. There is a part of it that was choice. We made the choice to keep going and we make the choice to keep going every day. And that is not an easy choice to make when it feels like the world is falling apart and there's no hope ahead of us. The fact that we are still here and that we make that choice every day, that's something to be fucking proud of. I'm proud of it and I'm proud of Autumn for doing that. And I am proud of every single one of you listening for making the choice to be here. 

Because it's not a choice that we have to make. It's a choice that we are choosing to make. We are here because we have opted to be here. We are here because we put in the work to survive, because we did develop those skill sets and we utilized them. We did not give up. We did not back down. And even in our weakest moments, we are still here and we are still surviving. 

 AUTUMN 

 116:29 

So with those concepts, I think we will go ahead and wrap up today. Ivy, do you want to go ahead and throw them our connecty bits? 

IVY 

 116:34 

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 AUTUMN 

 118:16 

 Definitely do reach out to us, and I'm kind of curious if any of you are willing to answer the question: If this is the pre apocalypse and we are starting to go into the apocalypse, what fictional character do you want on your team for the pre apocalypse? You can reach out in any of those ways that Ivy said. 

For now, though, we will wrap up for the day and we thank you for listening. As always. Remember, different does not mean defective.