Episode 40: Life is Good as a Goblin Girl: And Other Alternatives to the #HotGirlSummer

We’re in the sweltering stretch of summer and you know what that means... It’s #hotgirlsummer time. Or is it? Join us as we discuss the concept of the “hot girl summer”: what it’s supposed to be; whether the social media image fits its definition; the pros and cons of pursuing that ideal; and some equally valid alternatives if that particular hashtag doesn’t fit your vibe or aesthetic. There’s plenty enough room for all of us, whether you’re a hot girl, a goblin girl, or something else entirely. As they say: You do you, Boo.

AUTUMN 

 0:00 

Welcome to the different functional Podcast where we explore the triumphs and challenges of trauma recovery and being neuro divergent in a neurotypical world. In today's episode, we're going to be exploring finding alternative paths to the hot girl summer ideology. 

I am autumn, the older sister. And if you've listened to the podcast much you know much about me, you could probably guess that the hot girl summer ideology is a fairly, it's a fairly foreign concept to me. There's this show back from the 90s called Daria, it was on MTV. It's a cartoon. And one of the things I always remember from that was her parents got her photo for school and they said to her, you know, Daria, people judge you by your appearance, kind of saying, you know, maybe you should have tried to look pretty a little bit harder. And her response was, I believe there's something wrong with that system. And I have dedicated myself to changing it. And that's kind of how I've always felt I'm just I'm not that concerned with appearances, how I look what I dress, you know, my hair. It's not something I put a lot of effort in. So the entire concept of hot girls summer, I feel like it doesn't even apply to my world in even a peripheral sort of way.

IVY 

1:13

You know, as much as I love you and as much as I love Daria, I don't have the same attitude about it. Sometimes I wish that I did. Sometimes I wish that I literally just did not care at all what I what I look like, but I will admit that I am actually quite vain.

I’m Ivy, the younger sister, by the way. I think autumn would agree with me that I'm quite vain, because over the years, she has teased me relentlessly about how vain I am and has cringed and fled the room when I've used eyelash curlers. 

That being said, I have kind of a conflicted relationship with the hot girl summer ideology, because there's some things about it that I do. And some of the things about it that I enjoy. And I kind of fit in with that ideology. Like I do like wearing shorts during the summer. I think it's cute. I have the long hair and sometimes I do a fake tan and get pedicures for when I'm wearing sandals. So, there are some things that I do that fit with the ideology. 

But there's other things that I don't do. I don't wear a whole lot of makeup. That's not really something that I do anymore. I've gotten too lazy for it to be perfectly honest. And you know, one of the other things that I've always gotten the idea of with hot girl summer is a lot of social interaction going out to parties and having beers and margaritas and things like that. And that's not really something that I do either. So, there's some things that I like about the idea of hot girl summer. And then there's other things that don't fit for me with hot girl summer at all. So, I kind of have a conflicted relationship with the concept.

AUTUMN 

2:51

I could definitely get that. And I feel like part of the reason my relationship with hot girl summer is not conflicted is because in all honesty, it's not necessarily that I don't care about what I look like, or how other people perceive me. It's that I gave up in my adolescence.  It happened because I looked at the lump of clay that was me in the mirror, and I said I am never going to be pretty. I'm never going to meet that beauty standard. And so, I never bothered trying because the amount of time and money and energy and psychological investment I would have had to provide was so far in excess of what I was willing to pay, and so I never bothered to try. 

And that's kind of part of why we're talking about the idea of hot girl summer in this episode is because hot girl summer really embodies so many of these beauty standards and societal pressures that women are supposed to succumb to and be part of. But these standards and these pressures for so many of us are just downright impossible. It may be just difficult, but for some of us it’s downright impossible that we're ever going to meet them and so then we're just stuck.  Like, are we just supposed to sit on the chairs in the corner being the wallflowers being the dumpy wallflowers that nobody thinks is pretty? I don't personally like that. And part of my journey now is trying to find confidence in myself and to feel pretty and to be maybe a little bit focused on my appearance and be cool with being a little bit vain, but also not consumed with the idea that I'm never going to be as pretty as all of those girls out there that do the hot girl summer hashtag.

IVY 

4:30

You know, it's interesting that you say that you gave up in your adolescence, because when you looked in the mirror, you just kind of came to the conclusion that you were never going to be pretty and never fit the beauty standards. And as your younger sister, I actually, when we were growing up, I always felt like I was the ugly kid in the family. Our brother he always put a lot of effort into his appearance was very well put together and all of that he actually spent, I think, more time on his appearance than either of us combined. And it worked for him. And he's still like that he's a very well put together person and you were so naturally beautiful. Like when I looked at you were growing up, I always was comparing myself to you and thinking, Okay, well, autumns the pretty daughter. Like, I'm just always going to be the ugly one, I'm still gonna try, I'm gonna put effort in because I did care a lot about being pretty, but I never felt like I was going to measure up to you. 

And I think that that is actually a very relevant note for this episode as we get further into it. And we do talk about beauty standards, and all of the things that go into the idea of looking good is that we do often compare ourselves to other people, and we make these assumptions about ourselves, that we are never going to be as pretty as these other people. We're never going to be able to meet that standard. And so is it even possible for us to look good? Can we have a hot girl summer? Should we care about having a hot girl summer? And what does that even look like?

AUTUMN 

6:03

And honestly, to me, it would be very embarrassing for me to say, Oh, hot girls summer or hashtag hot girls summer with a cute photo, because that's so antithesis to who I am that I feel like if I did that I would still be selling out. Even if other people thought I was pretty, I would still feel like I'm selling out. That's a big part of what today's episode is all about, though, is finding that path that allows us all to have some of that hot girl summer ideology, without necessarily having to follow that hot girl summer path. 

So, if you actually Google “Hot Girl Summer”, the definition of hot girl summer and that whole mentality is all about being confident, having fun, looking good, not caring about what others think and living your best life unapologetically. And really, that that's a really awesome ideology, I think. You know, having confidence, going out and enjoying your life, feeling pretty, feeling attractive, not giving a fuck what other people think, or having the pressure to give in to other people. And of course, living your best life, which I am all for. I believe all of these concepts are great. But unfortunately, I feel like the hot girl summer that we see in social media isn't really that definition at all. And that's where this starts getting that conflict piece for a lot of us.

IVY 

7:22

And even I would be uncomfortable doing a hashtag hot girl summer photo, because even though I do present in some ways as being more stereotypically feminine, and follow some of those beauty standards or, you know, try at least to fit within some of those, I still don't feel like a lot of the imagery that I see associated with the phrase hot girl summer meshes with me. It is a very specific type of person and type of lifestyle. Like it's usually somebody who's very beautiful and skinny and looks great in a bikini and they have this long blonde hair and the super bright white veneers and they're drinking margaritas with their friends at a beach party. And while there's nothing wrong with being part of that group of people and having that type of lifestyle, and that look, that is not something that fits me at all, I never see hot girl summer referenced is really anything outside of that, I feel like it only represents a very small percentage of the population. You know, extroverted people who like to drink and party as their way of having fun, and they have tons of friends and they are very tanned and skinny and look athletic and fit and they just look bubbly and happy all the time. And that's not something that I feel fits me at all. So, I that's part of why I have conflicted relationship with hot girl summer is because the imagery that I see, that's supposed to represent that phrase does not match with the person that I see myself as,

AUTUMN 

8:58

Which then begs the question, like, What is the pathway for the rest of us? You know, for those of us that maybe identify more with the goblin vibe than the hot girl vibe? How do we develop these things? How do we be confident? How do we have fun? How do we stop caring so much about what others think? And how do we live our best life? 

So, let's dive into some of the stereotypes that around hot girls summer. Let's explore them a little bit. And let's talk about some alternatives. Because part of what happens with the media around this is we are given this idea that there's only one way to achieve this, there's only one way to look good, you know. It's to be skinny, blonde, voluptuous. Well, there's a lot of us that were never going to be skinny blonde or voluptuous. And that's just not a possibility at all. But that doesn't mean we're not attractive. So, let's start making our own scripts. Let's start making our own expectations and maybe like Ivy you pull some of the hot girl vibes and you pull some of the goblin vibes and you mix them together in something that makes sense for you.

So, let's start with something that we all definitely agree on is very much part of that Hot Girls summer which is looking good. And I'm gonna say right off the bat, I think the very first piece of looking good especially with the hot girl summer stereotype really comes into that diet culture idea.

IVY 

10:11

When you look at diet culture in general - pretty problematic on a lot of levels. Because first of all, diet culture exists largely to make money for big companies. The beauty standard is to look skinny. Now granted, the beauty standard has not always been that throughout history, there has been times when being kind of a voluptuous and curvy is more in. But for the last several decades, the beauty standard has primarily been, at least in Western culture, to be skinny, and often to be as skinny as possible. And in recent years, what's even more frustrating is that you're supposed to be as skinny as possible, but also be super curvy at the same time, which is a nearly impossible ideal. 

And that is kind of the point of diet culture, it is impossible ideals to keep you unhappy with the way that you look. And the reason why summer and that idea of hot girl summer is such a smorgasbord for these companies that want to make money off of your insecurities is because during summer we're going out and about more often wearing shorts, we're wearing a swimsuit, that we are exposed more by the sunlight, you know, all of those things. So, there's more of us to be seen. And sometimes we're being seen under harsher lights. And there's these social expectations, you're supposed to look a certain way when you put on a pair of shorts, or when you put on a swimsuit. And when you don't fit that. I mean, I think we've all seen on social media, when you don't fit that the vitriol that you can get from people that like: Oh, you're too fat to be wearing that.  You look disgusting. Why would you wear those shorts, like look at all the cellulite that you have. And so it's hard for a lot of us. 

And we do feel that pressure of the diet culture, because of the social expectations because of the imagery that we see. Even though a lot of times the imagery is fake, it's photoshopped, it's airbrushed, we're still getting inundated with those images. And it's very hard for us to accept ourselves as we are the way that we look and feel comfortable, we want to wear shorts, and we even want to look cute wearing them. But if you have a lot of cellulite or if you are more of a voluptuous curvy woman that can be hard for you to do and feel confident doing because of those social pressures because of these impossible ideals that are being fed to us by diet culture and the fashion industry and by social media. Ad even sometimes by cruel people who who just say rude things just for shits and giggles. 

So this is a, I think, a very touchy spot for a lot of people, especially women. Because there is so much focus on what we look like and how much we weigh and how we look in certain types of clothing. And so if you don't naturally fit well into those beauty standards, it can make you feel very insecure. And it can be a lot harder for you to feel like you actually do look good. Even though you look great. I'm sure you don't feel that way.

I have my issues during summer. I wear as little clothing as possible because too damn hot to be wearing a lot of cover up. But I feel insecure wearing shorts because I'll admit, I have a lot of cellulite and on my legs. And even though I know that's completely natural, and there's nothing that you can do about it. And a lot of people have cellulite, I still get really insecure about it every time I wear shorts. And it's hard for me not to be thinking about how I'm being judged and whether or not somebody who's going to make a mean comment. And I think a lot of us, even a lot of women do actually fit within those beauty standards, end up with these insecurities. Because we do compare ourselves to what we see on social media. And we do absorb this messaging from diet culture that you need to lose weight in order to be attractive.

AUTUMN 

13:54

I mean, that's what a societal pressure is. That's how societal pressure works. It's some piece of propaganda or knowledge or whatever that is so indoctrinated into us that we, as part of the society, then start enforcing it. And if the enforcement within yourself gets lax enough, then the other chickens are going to step in to peck you back into line. And that's part of how societal pressure works. 

Here's the thing, though. Society is humans. We are part of what is making up the society and perpetuating the society. So, if we decide that we don't want to buy into that piece of indoctrination anymore, we can choose not to. Which is not to say there are not consequences from the other chickens in our society. But it is to say that we have that choice. And if we start talking to other people and expanding these ideas, we can then start changing things even if it's just on a tiny level, even if it's just in our family or our friend group or our little town. 

And for me one of the first things for that is not to look at necessarily dieting, but to look at my diet. And I really hope this is shifting more and more. And I feel like that the media I see it is, but maybe it's just the algorithms feeding me what I want to see. So, I don't know. But when I was growing up, the only time you ever heard the word diet was really in relation to restricting your food intake or doing something crazy, like eating nothing but grapefruit, peanut butter, and eggs for three weeks so that you could be skinny. But now when I see the word diet, a lot of times I hear about eating healthier, about your mental health.

Especially about your mental health, because what we eat affects us so much. It's not just our weight that we need to be concerned about. Or if we even want to be concerned about that at all. It's our overall physical and mental health. And I know there's a lot of research showing that the intestines and the digestive system, they're even referring it to as the second brain, because it's so much impacts how we feel. 

And so that's what I've been doing a lot more is looking at my diet, not in the terms of well, how can I lose weight? Or how can I cut calories? Or how can I be skinnier? But how can I feel good? How can I be healthy, not just physically but mentally as well. And that's what I've done. I've really drastically changed my diet in the last probably just five years. But all of these things have been amazing for me, you know. I cut out sugar, I have so much less anxiety. I cut out gluten, I'm getting less headaches, which means more days of functioning, that I can actually do things and live my life. And to me, I feel like this is such a bigger consuming point. I mean, do you want to be skinny and concerned with that? Or do you want to be overall healthy and happy

IVY 

16:33

Along those lines of food influencing your mental health and everything, which has definitely been true for me as well, I've drastically changed my diet over about the last, I don't know, seven years probably. And one of the things that I have noticed is that I if I want to feel sane, and not have a ton of anxiety and depression, I really do have to fuel my body. Not only do I need to eat specific things, I cannot super restrict the number of calories that I take in every day. Because if I go too long without food, or if I don't take in sufficient calories throughout the day, my mental health goes completely haywire. I have way more intense anxiety and fearfulness when I'm out in the world, and then I end up with a depression crash and I have no energy. I'm just a mess when I don't eat enough food. And unfortunately, a lot of diet culture does focus on heavy restriction of calories. 

That phrase nothing tastes as good as skinny feels. First of all, fuck that. And to me personally, as somebody who loves food, there's a hell of a lot of foods that tastes better than skinny feels. But also, I need and you need, we all need, to fuel our bodies properly so that we actually can enjoy life. We should be allowed to weigh what is natural for us, we shouldn't have to think constantly about limiting what we put into our mouths because we just need to be skinny so that we can look good in those clothes or be attractive to that guy at the bar. We deserve better than that. 

And now granted during summer, you may actually lose weight naturally. And there's nothing wrong with that either. Because during summer, a lot of us do tend to eat lighter meals. And it's not always because we're actively trying to lose weight. It's because it's fucking hot outside and you don't want to eat something heavy. We also have a lot more access to fresh fruits and vegetables that just tastes so much better than a lot of the stuff that you can get during winter. Especially if you live someplace where there's farmers markets and you can get local food, it's a lot easier to eat healthier. Because the lifestyle that often comes with summer really does promote that better access to fresh food. Being out and about and being more physically active in all of those things are great, and you may naturally lose weight. And that's fine too. But to make it a huge focus that you have to lose weight in order to be attractive in order to fit right into those clothes that I think is damaging and destructive. So focus on fueling your body and focus on how food helps you and what things actually bring you joy.

AUTUMN 

19:22

That is a lot easier said than done. Because, as we said, part of that societal pressure means that when we choose to care more about how we feel than how we look, there is potential pushback from those around us. Whether that be just society at large or trolls on the internet or it could even mean our significant others or family members or people we thought were friends. 

And so, this actually kind of reminds me of a joke I heard on a Taylor Tomlinson special and she's a stand-up comedian. She's absolutely hilarious. If you haven't listened to her, you totally should. But she was essentially talking about the idea of arm floaties, you know using arm floaties if you can't swim as a analogy for if you have mental health issues, it's okay to take medication. And she's like, well, I know a lot of you out there saying, but what if people make fun of me for using arm floaties? You know? And that's the idea of what if people make fun of me for taking medication? Or what if people make fun of me for eating and fueling my body and caring about my mental health and my physical health, over caring about how I look. And she says, Well, those people don't really care if you live or die, so maybe fuck those people. 

And I kind of agree with her on that, you know, because when we aren't eating healthily, we increase a lot of our physical and mental health issues. And so, if other people are mocking the fact that we are choosing to take care of our physical and mental health, over succumbing to social pressure, maybe fuck those people. Maybe start looking for some people that are going to support you in being healthy and happy. But again, as an autistic person that has to survive in a society that is not built for me, I totally understand the need to mask and to comply with social pressures on occasion. So, if you feel like you have to focus on how you look, and you're not ready to make that step to being authentically concerned about your physical and mental health, that's okay, too. It's a journey. It's all a journey. 

Another piece of this hot girl summer and looking good that I feel that really plays into this as well is grooming. Okay, so this is personal and professional. This is Mani-Pedis, this is getting your hair all, pretty this is getting those pretty tans. It's also body hair removal, makeup, skincare. There is an entire industry - Heck, there are entire industries built around women's grooming. And there is so much pressure to not go out in public without makeup to make sure you have no hair on your legs, to be pretty and tan, to have fingers all you know, manicured up and all that. There's so much pressure for that in this society.

IVY 

21:55

You know, I was mentioning before how women, I think, really feel that pressure even more so than men because so much of our value from a societal standpoint comes from our level of physical attractiveness. During the summer, a lot of our insecurities do tend to come up more because as I mentioned before, we are out and about more, there is more of our skin to be seen. We are under harsher lights when we're out in sunlight. And as a rule, that means we are more under the microscope as far as how we appear. And so even though we may put in effort to our appearance all year long during summer, that push becomes even bigger. And a lot of times we spend more time money, effort, just general resources on personal grooming, to make sure that we look as good as possible. 

And I would say one of the first ones in this category that comes up during summer is tanning. It's kind of expected that during summer you will get a tan. I actually had a friend on Facebook and they posted something, this is a few years ago, but it was a rant about how if you are pale, don't even fucking put on shorts. Nobody wants to see your pale skin. Go get a fucking tan or don't wear shorts. And as somebody who is incapable of tanning, I have that red hair and I sunburn like a motherfucker but I do not tan. I burst into flames. I turn bright red. I peel. I'm the same color that I was before. And for a lot of years. Honestly, that was a big part of the reason why I did not ever wear shorts. I actually wore quite a bit of clothing during summer. And it wasn't even to protect my skin from the sun. 

I'm not gonna lie, I did not care about whether or not I was gonna get cancer. It was that I felt insecure about how pale I was. So I tried to cover up as much of my body as possible. In recent years, I occasionally will wear the fake tan and that's fine. Like it's kind of fun from time to time. And as somebody who will very likely get skin cancer if I don't protect myself properly, going to a tanning bed, that's like a fucking death sentence to me. Even going out and being under the sun for too long, is not particularly safe for me. It's not comfortable for me either because I do burn and it's painful. It is hard for people like me, who don't naturally fit that part of the beauty standard who don't naturally fit into that summer lifestyle. 

And it's kind of hard to accept that about yourself. Like this is one of those things I literally can't change about myself. So I'm also trying to be more accepting of just how I am naturally. Even if I'm not comfortable wearing the shorts because of my pale skin and my cellulite. I still try to make an effort to do that. Because I still want to be comfortable and I still want to have fun and feel cute and not feel like I have to tan in order to do that,

AUTUMN 

25:02

Now, as somebody that does tan naturally, I can say that having this part of the beauty standard, because if I go out, I'll get maybe a sunburn and then it turns into a beautiful tan and I'm good the rest of summer - I probably won't even ever get another sunburn. That sounds really awesome and ideal. The reality is though, because this happens with my skin, I'm now 41 years old and I have never really used sun protection in my life. So now I am really starting to see some of the sun damage. Instead of getting that nice golden overall tan. I'm starting to kind of look like a leopard here and there because the sun has literally damaged my skin. So I feel like this one particularly can be very damaging even for those of us who tanning comes naturally to. It's kind of like Oh, is that a good thing? Is that what you're supposed to do? 

And I always wonder with this too about like, Well, what about the rest of the fucking world? Because I'm sorry, isn't tanning kind of a white person thing? Because I feel like if you've got some of that beautiful, darker skin? I don't know. Like, do you need to turn it darker? You know, I feel like there's a whole range of colors out there from that blinding pale white that Ivy is to that really dark, dark, almost black skin tone out there. And I feel like all of those shades are really beautiful. I think it's so fucking stupid to feel like, Oh, everybody should be this one color. I mean, come on people.

IVY 

26:33

It is kind of ridiculous. It's one of those things that is both tragic and comedic at the same time to me: you are not beautiful without this perfect skin tone. Getting that beautiful skin tone will also make you age way faster, and potentially kill you. But we still have all this pressure to do it. It's like yeah, I mean, it might kill you, there's a fairly high likelihood that as a super white person, you'll get skin cancer, and that sucks. But hey, you'll be attractive this summer. Who cares about summers 20 years down the road because you'll look too old from all the tanning by them to even matter. Because we all know it at least in Western society, I won't speak for the rest of the world. But we all know that once you reach a certain age, you are no longer valuable anyway, because that is also in the beauty standards. 

You can't be over the age of like, I don't know 50 and still be considered attractive, which is also another ridiculous beauty standard that also falls into this hot girl summer thing too. I think hot girl summer a lot of the imagery that goes with it is also kind of, I guess what you call an ageist? Because it's all like teenagers, people in their 20s maybe people in their 30s. Once you get past 40, like, there's no not really representation of you even past 35. There's not really much representation for you in terms of hot girl summer.

AUTUMN 

27:52

Damnit, at 41 I've missed my chance to have a hot girl summer. I am really, really heartbroken. 

Here's one of the other things that comes with grooming that is a personal issue for me, which is body hair removal. I don't do it anymore. I don't shave. I don't shave my pits. I don't shave my legs. Apparently talking to Ivy the other day doing notes, some women shave their arms, and like their face and stuff. And I'm like, holy gosh, that is so much razor, that is so much time, that is so much more than I have the capacity to do. So, I no longer shave anything. 

And here's the weird thing though. I have long luxurious armpit hair. I've got a better head of armpit hair than my boyfriend does, okay. It's a little intimidating. I am nowhere near as embarrassed of that. I will go out of the house in a sleeveless shirt. But even though you can barely see the hair on my legs, because it's a really fine, fine hair, and it's a really light color, I don't wear shorts anymore. Because it's embarrassing to me. And I know the whole thing behind it and what they say about how it was Gillette in the 20s, they made this campaign of shame and we shouldn't be ashamed. 

And again, like I said, it's a lot easier said than done. It's a lot easier to say oh yeah, you shouldn't be ashamed of your body hair. It's natural. It makes you look adult. It's just part of what it is. Versus being able to stop shaving and going out in public with your hairy legs because we have been told for so long that that is disgusting and unclean and nasty. Like it almost has this disease overtone to it. Which is I feel like that's a little bit out of proportion. But I mean hella good marketing, I mean how much gets spent on hair removal in this country. 

IVY 

29:33

I feel like even a lot of the people that I know that shun most other beauty standards. Body hair removal is a thing for them that they get insecure about. I will admit I removed pretty much all body hair that I have, but I don't like the way it looks. I also hate the sensory experience of having body hair. But, here's the thing, if I see other people with body hair, I don't care. It literally does not matter to me at all. I see the hair growing on my arms too long, and I'm like, oh my god that looks so gross. Or if I don't shave my legs for a couple of days, from a sensory sensory standpoint, I'm, I'm freaking out because I hate the way the pickles are like. I removed my facial hair and stuff too, even though it's peach fuzz, and nobody would be able to see it anyway. And part of that is that societal pressure.

As much as I would love to just claim neurodivergence and say, Oh, it's only a sensory issue. That's the only reason why I do it. I can't honestly say that, because that is one of the beauty standards that I do feel that pressure of. Again, it's weird, because I don't care about anybody else in their body here. And as a massage therapist, I get clients come in all the time, and they haven't removed their body hair, it doesn't gross me out. I don't think it makes them less attractive. But if it's on me, it's suddenly a problem. And now I'm less attractive as a result of having body hair. 

And to further reiterate the point that Autumn was making about, this kind of marketing campaign that's completely overtaken our culture in terms of shame, at least in the US, I won't speak for the rest of the world, because I think there are other areas of the world where body hair is totally fine and natural, and nobody cares, but in US culture, it really has completely consumed so many people that one of the most common things that I get from clients in the 11 years now that I've been doing massage, is apologies for not shaving certain parts of their body. I will get clients who come in and they are genuinely embarrassed, and very apologetic. They will apologize multiple times during their session because they didn't shave their legs, or they didn't shave their armpits. And sometimes I even get men who apologize because they didn't shave their back. This is something that is a social pressure, at least in the US is a social pressure, that has affected so many people. And it's not actually just exclusive to women, you would be shocked by the number of men have apologized to me because they didn't shave their back. And they feel like it makes them ugly, because they didn't shave their back. We have real issues around body hair and this culture. 

AUTUMN 

32:17

Honestly, this is one I'm thankful to my neurodivergence for because one of the main reasons I don't shave now wasn't like, Yeah, I'm gonna break the stereotype. Like, I wish I was that much of a rebel that willing to change society at my own expense, but I'm not. It was because I had sensory issues with it. That's the big piece.  I am living off grid, I'm not in the place where I can shower once or twice a day so I can maintain shaving. And anytime I get the teeniest bit of growth from shaving, it drives me fucking insane. And I can't not think about it. And so since I can only bathe like once a week now, there was no way that I was going to be able to tolerate having that growth. And so I gave it up. And so I'm actually thankful to my neurodivergence for this one. 

But I really think that's what body hair should come down to. Again, it's not like oh my gosh, it's so natural. You should never shave. You're so wrong. If you shave you're a sellout. You're just getting into the marketing. And it should neither be the opposite end of that, which is Oh, you must definitely shave because otherwise you're gross. I feel like most everything else we're gonna be talking about, what makes you comfortable? Not just with societal pressures, but physically well, I mean. Because we're talking about altering what our body is. And here's the thing,  I don't shave. But I trim downstairs because I can't have a 1970s Porn bush. That's not going to go well with my off grid lifestyle or bathing once a week so that gets trimmed because it makes sense, but the rest of it doesn't make sense to shave. And I'm hoping that somewhere along this journey of mine, I feel that I’m getting closer, that one of these days I'm going to be able to go to the grocery store and wear shorts. Even though my legs are hairy and just be like man, who cares. That's what I'm working towards. 

So, then another part of this this looking good piece and especially part of grooming is skincare and makeup. And I'm gonna have to throw the ball to Ivy on this one because I've used makeup I think once in no twice in my life, I know nothing about makeup and I know nothing about skincare. 

IVY

34:16

Honestly there's still a lot of things I don't know about makeup and skincare either. I do know more than Autumn because I have put more effort into it but I am not an expert in either of those things. I have, though, considered going back to school to be an esthetician because skincare is something that has really interested me in recent years. There is so much under the umbrella of skincare there's so many different procedures you can get and creams and serums and all of these tools that you can get. And there so much advice out there. And I feel like a lot of women, especially as they start to get older, they start spending a whole lot more time on skincare and I am definitely one of those people. When I was in my teens, my 20s I wore a lot of makeup but I didn't do really anything to care for my skin, and now it's the opposite. 

A lot of people spend a shit ton of money on skincare. And during summer that becomes even more so. And it's not just people spending more money on sunblock, it's people spending more money on things like Botox injections, because oh, you know, you saw yourself when you were out and about and in the sunlight, you can really see those fine lines and wrinkles. And that's not acceptable, I have to get rid of those. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with doing that, if that's something that you feel like you need to do in order for you to feel more confident yourself. I'm not here to judge you at all. But there is a social pressure to have perfect skin. And to get that perfect skin, no matter what you have to do, whether you have to get fillers that may be dangerous, whether you have to get Botox, and that could be painful and expensive, whether you have to go through these intense procedures to get rid of acne. 

Because there's plenty of people, plenty of adult who still deal with acne, but that’s something that culturally is not acceptable. I mean, you are treated as though you are disgusting, or diseased or unclean if you have acne, which is ridiculous because it is something that naturally occurs. And some people just have issues with it. I mean, honestly, as an adult, I have more acne than I had when I was a teenager. For some reason my hormone balance is more finicky now than it was when I was going through puberty. And I ended up with more acne than I ever did when I was younger. And I'll admit, I spent a lot of money on products to deal with that and money on makeup trying to cover it up. And I felt a lot of insecurity about it. And I still get really insecure when I when I break out about going out in public with visible breakouts. This is something that affects a lot of people. 

And so during summer especially we end up spending so much money on skincare trying to have perfect skin that is entirely smooth and plump in all the right places. And it's just another one of these unreasonable expectations because skin has texture and people do break out and we do get fine lines and wrinkles, and those things are okay. But socially these things are unacceptable. 

And with makeup, my relationship with makeup has changed dramatically. Over the years, I used to wear a lot of makeup or I'll say I used to wear a lot of eye makeup. I never got good with foundation and contouring, I still don't understand contouring I watch videos of people doing contouring and I am just genuinely dumbfounded by the things that they're capable of do and makeup as a true art that I do not have the talent or money or time to put the effort into that.  

There is so much expectation to wear makeup and to almost transform your face entirely with makeup because you need to look like your cheeks are a little bit more hollowed out and you need to have freckles because that's a trend right now. Where you need to make sure that your lips look really plump and you need to have super long eyelashes. And people end up spending so much money on these things trying to fit into these beauty standards. But there are so many different forms of beautiful. 

And it's been unfortunate to me to see, especially with social media and all the filters and photoshopping that people do, like more and more people are starting to look the same, especially on social media because all of the filters and the photoshopping, it all ends up making people look like almost generic copies of each other. And what makes us beautiful in a lot of ways are our asymmetries and the things that make our face unique. The shape of our nose, how our lips are different from that person over there that the way our eyebrows are shaped. I would like to see more celebration of differences and not so much pressure on having perfect skin and putting pretty colors on it to make it look ideal. 

There's nothing wrong with wearing makeup. But it is sad to see that pressure being there that this is a necessity. Or that if you're going to go without makeup, you have to be naturally beautiful, whatever that means. And the only other note that I would make on makeup too, is that it is bullshit that women are expected to wear makeup, but men are mocked if they do, I just want to say right now if you are a man and you want to wear makeup, go right ahead. Like there is nothing wrong with that either. And it's bullshit that society has told you that because you are a man. You are not allowed to wear makeup that makes you weak. It makes you girly. The fact that being girly is something that is looked down upon to begin with is fucked up. But if you are a man and you enjoy wearing makeup, or you enjoy doing makeup, and that's something that interests you and that you like, and you like the way that you look better when you're wearing it, than fucking go ahead. It doesn't matter what society says. I know, it's easier said than done to block out those messages. But you are totally allowed to do what makes you feel confident and feel happy. 

AUTUMN

40:23

Originally, I chose to not wear makeup, because I didn't want to be the same as everybody else. And all girls wore makeup and therefore I wasn't going to wear makeup because I was going to be different. And I wasn't going to be like all the other chimpanzees grooming themselves in class was kind of my haughty judgmental teenage self. But as I've grown older, I've really realized that makeup is just an art. And I'm not interested in that particular art. And so I'm not willing to invest the resources in it. And I feel like exactly what Ivy is saying. Like if man, woman, whatever, if you enjoy the art, enjoy the art. Decorate yourself, make yourself meet these beauty standards or your own beauty standards or look completely different. But if you don't feel like investing in that, don't. You're not required to know how to spin pottery or paint on canvas. Why should you be required to know how to wear makeup? 

And I will say as somebody that has never ever worn makeup in public the entirety of my life. Not one person has ever said anything to me. And yeah, I get a few judgmental looks every now and again. But more people than not just don't care. More people than not are more concerned with their makeup and how they look and people judging them than they are with judging someone else. Though, I know that's not true for everybody. 

And as far as wrinkles and light go. I am one of those people that has always, I've always celebrated wrinkles. And I have always looked forward to having smile wrinkles, is what I call them instead of frowny wrinkles. And so that's honestly part of what my journey has been over the past couple decades. Because I know wrinkles are coming. It's just part of age, it's gonna happen to me. And so I've really been trying to say okay, what can I do to change so I have smile wrinkles. So when I am an older lady and I have this beautiful face just full of wrinkles, I want my face to tell the story that I was happy that I smiled that I lived life. And I celebrate it because wrinkles are a story about how you live your life. And that's the story I wanted to tell when I got older. And I am I'm starting to get these smile wrinkles. And I'm also getting some of these frowny wrinkles. But that's okay, because it's part of my story. 

And then that brings us to the last piece of looking good that really gets put in there with that hot girl summer idea. And that is clothing. I mean, when I think hot girl summer, I'm thinking all these short shorts and bikinis and so much of your body just shown off, which is really intimidating to me. Like even if I thought I was super attractive, I'm just not the kind of person that likes to flaunt all my skin. I'm not comfortable with that. And it's not so much necessarily about societal standards, as opposed to just sensory comfort and personal comfort. 

But I mean, it's hard though, because like Okay, have you ever seen cute modest shorts? I don't like wearing short shorts. Even when I had my legs shaved, I did not like wearing short shorts. I'm just not comfortable in them. So I like having shorts that come down to my knee, about that area. That's the most comfy for me. You know what I look like? I look old in those. I do. I got mistaken for my boyfriend's mom. And yes, I'm 10 years older than him. But I put on some khaki knee length shorts, and I got mistaken for his mom. I do not look that old. That's how old these shorts made me. They made me look 20 years older than my boyfriend. And it's not fair. I want cute, modest shorts. Why can't we have that Ivy? 

IVY

43:53

I don't know. Because the fashion industry sucks. Unless you're somebody that fits well into the clothes that the fashion industry makes, which is wonderful for you if that is the case, but my experience has been personally and among the women that I have known and talk to about frustrations around clothing, most women do not fit well and confidently into the clothes that the fashion industry pushes on us. Which really, really sucks because clothing has a way of making us feel, in some ways, even more insecure than maybe nudity might. Because if your clothes don't fit you right, they're biting in to different areas. They're making rolls where maybe there weren't rolls before. They're accentuating things that you don't like or they're covering up assets that maybe you would like to highlight. They just don't fit right and then that makes you feel again like you're not good enough like you're not fitting the beauty standard because if you fit the beauty standard, these clothes would fit you. And that's bullshit.

If you're at all familiar with the body positivity movement or you follow any body positivity influencers you've probably seen on their pages before that idea that your clothes should fit you, not the other way around. You shouldn't have to force yourself into clothing that does not feel comfortable to you that doesn't suit you that makes you feel insecure just because it's what the fashion standard is. 

Honestly, one of the things that has made me the most proud of women recently, when it comes to fashion, like overall is when they brought back low rise jeans. And all of the women that I saw on social media, all of my friends, myself included, it was aw hell no. Because if you lived before, through the low rise jeans era, you remember how it gave you that super painful muffin top and like dug into your side all day and your butt crack was showing. you couldn't squat down. You couldn't bend over. You couldn't do anything. If your stomach was not perfectly flat. You felt gross and disgusting. The low rise jeans era was not fun for most of us, I think. And so when the fashion industry tried to force that, there were so many women said Fuck no, I'm not doing that again. They did not, at least not yet, take away our high rise jeans. Thank fucking god for that. I am so proud of all of the women that said, Hell no, I'm not doing low rise jeans again. I hope we can influence more things in the fashion industry by boycotting certain things that just aren't right for us. 

If low rise jeans work for you, and you are enjoying the comeback of that trend, I am very happy for you. There have been times when I really wished I could do low rise jeans comfortably. But that is not. That's not a thing that looks good on me. By my estimation. It's also not a thing that feels comfortable for me at all. 

It is frustrating how much the clothing that is pushed at us it does not fit us. And I say that largely as a curvy woman, a curvy woman that even within that stereotype as far as the beauty standards, I don't fit into perfectly, because I have really curvy hips and I've got an hourglass figure. And they expect that if you have that shape, you are also going to have huge boobs and I do not have huge boobs. And it is almost impossible for me to find a bra that fits me. And even when I find a bra that does fit me a lot of times it doesn't accentuate that area the way that I want it to. And that drives me crazy. Because then I feel like I look asymmetrical because my hips are wider and my boobs are small and then the jeans don't fit me right because I can't get them up over my hips. And then there's a huge gap at the top of the waistband. It's frustrating to find clothes that actually fit you. Especially as a curvy woman or somebody that just doesn't fit within thr very narrow confines of what fashion says is attractive and beautiful. 

AUTUMN

48:03

This is another part where I again very thankful for my neurodivergence, because in many ways my neurodivergence has helped me escape a lot of the pressures of society. And clothing is one in particular for me, Partially because I dress for my sensory issues. So for whatever reason, I cannot wear short sleeve shirts. Sleeveless? Yes. Long Sleeve? Yes. Short Sleeve? No. So that means like, even if that was the most trendy thing in the world, it wouldn't matter because I cannot tolerate a shirt sleeve that ends mid upper arm. It freaks me the fuck out. And that's my entire wardrobe. Underwear, socks, bra shirts, coats, whatever it is, it has to feel good. I don't give a fuck what it looks like, if it doesn't feel nice on me. 

And then when it comes to looking good. Well, I'm also really cheap. I don't like spending money. So I'm a thrift store girl. And so if I can't find the jeans that accentuate me just right, well, too bad because this is all the jeans that thrift store had. So I better find something that's going to cover my ass so I can go to work. 

And I've been very, very lucky. Those two driving forces: my sensory issues and being cheap, have really allowed me to escape the societal pressure. But I still do wish I could find stuff that makes me look nice because like I said, it would be nice if our clothes could express who we are. And not you know, us trying to shove ourselves into the stereotype that the clothing provides. But again, even with that, though, my sensory issues would probably override that. Because I would love to be one of those, you know, as I'm getting into my middle age or whatever they call 40s now, those witchy women with the long broomstick skirts and the cute kind of tie dye peasant tops. I want to be that person. My life and sensory issues are not going to allow me. I mean, what if a bird flies up there? I don't need a bird up my cooch, but this is a very real possibility with my life. So there goes the peasant skirts. 

IVY

49:58

I always want to be one of them boho checks. Like, I love that look like the bohemian style of fashion. With by sensory issues, I cannot fucking wear them because it's a lot of flowy things, especially flowy sleeves. And I think it looks cool. But if I were to wear a flowy sleeve, I would be so annoyed all day long. I'd be like trying to smack that shit out of the way. Like you can't roll that up, because it's too big to roll up, it just falls back down. It’d be in my way all the time. So I relate to that is as well. Because sometimes you have to shop for your sensory. It is hard when you are both a neurodivergent person with sensory issues, you are cheap, and you still are vain and want to fit in with some of the beauty standards because that is a really tall order that gets frustrating very quickly. 

I do want to say like two more things here on the point of clothing, though. If you are somebody that likes things like low rise jeans, but society says you don't have the right body type for it, if you are capable of being confident enough to wear whatever the fuck you want, then do that. It does not matter what society says. If you like the way that it looks on you, or if you like the way that it feels, and you think you look cute, then all the more power to you. And if you are somebody that wants to dress for comfort, and not follow the beauty standards, but you still want to feel cute, that is possible too. 

Maybe you don't want to wear a bikini, maybe you don't even want to wear a one piece bathing suit. Maybe you would like to wear men's swim trunks and sports bra. That does not make you any less cute or any less attractive because you don't feel comfortable with or you're not drawn to those stereotypical feminine sorts of clothing. So I just want to say that you don't have to fit within those clothes. You don't have to follow those beauty standards in order to be cute in order to be confident again. I know easier said than done. But that is not something that is necessary in order for you to be attractive and to feel confident. 

And that is something that I think we all need to be working towards more, and I am happy to begin seeing a shift. Culturally, it really did, it just made my heart so happy when women said no to low rise jeans. And they demanded that we get to keep our high-rise pants. Because that to me is a positive indicator that we are on our way to being able to set more of our own beauty standards when it comes to fashion. 

AUTUMN

52:33

And on that note of men's swims trucks and a sports bra: I say hell yeah to that from both the sensory perspective as well as just a functional aspects. First off, men's swim trunks really comfortable and they come in some really awesome styles. Second off as a woman with some boobage not a lot of boobage – I’m a C – somewhere in the C/D range - but there's enough there and I'm old enough 41. They kind of sag and I don't know if you've tried on bikini tops lately, but they either create this weird like boobish hill thing that happens, or they barely secure i]them and they're wanting to like fall out and slap fish and things like that, which is not what want. I don't want to slap a fish in the face with my breast. It's not on my list. And so sports bras will keep those babies tucked where they are, the fish are safe, you're safe, it's a good deal. So I'm just gonna let you know I put my vote out there. Men swim trunks and sports bras. 

We talked all about the looking good aspect of that hot girl summer. So now let's talk about another one of the core concepts that comes with hot girl summer. And that is having fun. And I would say the very big first piece of this is just that you're expected to go out and do things, okay. And now as somebody that one) does not like to leave her house and two) has very little energy after she puts in a day of functioning in society, I neither want to go out, nor do I want to do things. I want to goblin up on my couch and read a book and snuggle my dog. I don't care that it's gorgeous and summer out. I want to be home and surrounded by my animals and not doing anything. So, I feel that you can have a lot of fun and not have to go out into the world necessarily. 

IVY

54:17

Let's talk a little bit real quick about what it actually means to have fun under the umbrella of this hot girl summer. So, a lot of it, like I said, does have to do with going out and doing things but what does that mean really? What does that actually look like? So, with a lot of the images and videos and marketing that we see for hot girl summer, a lot of it looks like going to lots of parties, going on tropical vacations, doing lots of social things, going to music festivals, going to market. And yes, those things can be fun and maybe you actually do enjoy going and doing some of those things. 

Even if you're somebody that wants to do a lot of things, summer can actually get pretty exhausting very fast. Because a lot of events are planned for summers, a lot of weddings are planned during the summer, music festivals, anything that has to do with being outside. And you also have this this push the hashtag YOLO, or the FOMO, that the you only live once and the fear of missing out, you don't want to miss out on all of these cool, amazing things. And so there's all of this pressure to like go go go all the time and have something planned for every weekend and get outside as much as possible. And that's fine. If you want to do that, and you have the energy to do that. 

Not all of us have the wherewithal to do these things. I am a very introverted person, with a lot of sensory issues, a lot of social anxiety. I do not like being around crowds. It's really difficult for me to go and do even some of the things that I want to do during summer that are part of the hot girl summer idea of fun. Parties are not my idea of fun. I don't have any interest in that. But I would love to go to a music festival. But every time I think about it, I think God, that's a lot of people. And they usually have those speakers up really loud, maybe I won't go. 

But that doesn't mean that I cannot have fun at all. I can do things in small doses. I can go to smaller events. I don't have to go to every party or a wedding that I'm invited to. I don't have the money to travel right now. That that's fine, I could go camping instead. There's lots of things that you can do and still have fun, that maybe don't fit within the imagery that we see pushed on us as far as what a hot girl summer is supposed to look like. I don't want to go to a wine tasting, I don't really have that many friends. I don't want to hang out with people in groups. I want to do things one on one. I want to go for a hike with a friend. I want to go camping with Kelvin. 

That doesn't look as pretty are the pictures for a hot girl summer. And that's where we don't see those images is because it's not always photogenic, the things that we want to do. Maybe we'll take pictures of the scenery. But we don't really want to take pictures of ourselves after a hike because that's hot girl summer in a whole nother way that doesn't look very flattering. But that doesn't mean that you can't go and have fun, you don't have to do this very specific list of things. You don't have to go to very specific events. Or you don't have to go to all of the events. You don't have to feel pressured to do all of the things. 

Even if it's a lot of stuff you want to do. You really still want to listen to yourself and to your own needs and your mental health and what you're capable of what you actually have time for. Don't overbook yourself so much that the summer just wears you out. And you're so busy trying to have fun that you don't actually get any downtime. And you don't really even get the opportunity to have as much fun as you want. Because you just overloaded yourself with things that need to be done. 

AUTUMN

58:04

This also comes in with that larger societal pressure overall. And this isn't just a female pressure, I feel like this is just that pressure that adults experience. Like if you want to be a fun person, if you want to have fun. These are the allowed activities. 

Because if you build ships in a bottle, if you collect stamps, if you golf, if you do all these other things, well, that's not fun. And so if you go to the parties and the raves and the festivals and you're not having fun, something's wrong with you. And I feel like that is an overarching societal pressure that again, is very, very false. If you go to a festival and you're not having fun, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with the festival or the other people there. It means that you and the festival don't mesh up. And that's okay. You don't have to mesh up with every activity out there. And so it's okay to explore what's fun to you. You know, maybe that is camping. Like Ivy said, maybe road tripping, gardening, book club, doing nothing on the couch like I do. There's plenty of things that you can find to do that will accommodate for your sensory issues or your physical issues or your mental health issues, and still allow you to have fun, and enjoy it. 

And on the note of like Ivy said, you may not be super photogenic and so we don't take pictures of ourselves. From my perspective, fun shouldn't be photogenic at all. Because I feel like if you're really having fun, it's messy. It's exciting. There's jumping around. There's movement for me, because I have a lot of big facial expressions. So whenever you see pictures of an event where I was having fun with somebody, I look like I'm trying to eat their head. I've got the weirdest look. My jaw’s over to the left and I'm cross-eyed it that that's okay too. Fun does not have to be photogenic. It can be messy. It can be sweaty, it can be no makeup, it can be covered in dirt. it can be you looking like a total dweeb. Fun isn't about the photos. It's about experiencing the moment.

IVY

60:02

I kind of blame social media for this idea that we now have. Everything has to be photogenic and that only really good photos are worthwhile photos to keep. Maybe, you know what, maybe take the photos anyway, even if you don't share them on social media, maybe you'll want to look back on these memories someday. And even though right now you're looking at those photos and thinking, I look really bad in that photo. Maybe 10 years, 20 years down the line, you'll look at that photo, and you'll have a much softer approach to it. And think, man, that was a really really good time that I had. I'm so glad that I actually have this photo to remember this by. 

You don't have to be the image of hot girl summer to have a hot girl summer I guess. You can do whatever the fuck it is that appeals to you. Like Autumn said, you can even just sit on the couch and do nothing. You don't even have to go out. Just because it's summer outside and the weather is nice and it's sunny doesn't mean you have to go anywhere. That's something that we have a lot of pressure around here in the Pacific Northwest because for most of the year, it's rainy and overcast kind of shitty. So as soon as the sun comes out for those few months, there's so much pressure to go out and do things just while the weather's nice. You don't want to miss out on the weather, you have to go do something go outside. 

You don't always feel like going outside, maybe fun for you is not going out. Maybe fun for you, is staying at home and just watching movies all day and relaxing. And that's totally acceptable too. 

AUTUMN

61:30

I think one of the other stereotypes that gets mixed in with having fun is drinking alcohol. And I would say that's very much hot girl summer. I almost feel like this is just another adult thing. Because all my life it's always been oh, we're getting together well, what are you doing? Oh, we're gonna you know, go to the bar, or we're gonna kick back and drink this six pack or have margaritas. Everything adult has always had alcohol in it for my experience, like unless you're going to something religious, or a kid's birthday party that you got invited to or something. And that's really frustrating for me, because I'm not a big alcohol person. 

I had a lot of issues with alcohol. I didn't even have my first drink of alcohol until I was in my 30s because I was so terrified of becoming an alcoholic. And it's so weird to me, because I remember having all sorts of awesome parties as a kid and carnivals and cake walks and I don't know, there were games and stuff. And it was awesome. And then all of a sudden in adulthood, it's like yeah, let's go have fun. Where's pin the tail on the donkey, where's tag, where's all this awesome party stuff? All I got is alcohol. I feel like that's a bum trade. I want the kid games back, I want to have fun at a party not drink. 

IVY

62:41

Now all of those games still exist, they just get turned into drinking games.

This is honestly something that it has been a little bit of a struggle for me to I don't judge people who drink. I've overcome, at least I think, a lot of my issues that I had around alcohol and you know, having parents with addictions and things like that. But I still, I'm not a big drinker. I do enjoy an occasional drink. It's not something that I really want to do on a regular basis. It's more of a every once in a while thing for me. And social or party situations, it can actually become pretty detrimental to me, because with my social anxiety, my inclination is to drink so that I can let go of some of the social anxiety and be free of inhibitions. But what I end up doing is not pacing myself because I really want to get to that point where I'm buzzed. So I'm not stressed out, so I down too much alcohol, and then it hits me all at once. And then I make myself sick. And then I'm embarrassed and ashamed of myself for getting sick. It's not generally a fun time for me. 

At this point in my life. If I do want to drink, I don't want to go out. Maybe I'll have a drink at a restaurant if I go out to eat. But for the most part, I just want to grab a couple of hard ciders and drink at home. That way I don't feel the need to get drunk. I can just enjoy the feeling of being buzzed and not be doing it to escape my social anxiety. 

And you know, not everybody wants to drink. Autumn and I were raised Mormon. I think that's part of the reason why we had so many alcohol-free experiences. Granted there was some alcoholism in our family. But a lot of the things that when our family would go out and do things occasionally it was things like church events, or it was school events where you're not really going to have alcohol there, especially in the Bible Belt. I wish that there were more socially acceptable things for adults to do together that didn't involve drinking like Autumn. Like why can we not just play games? Why does it have to turn into a drinking game? I've never understood why as an adult, the only way to socialize and have fun, involves copious amounts of alcohol. 

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with socially drinking or going to the bar or playing drinking games, that's totally fine too, if that's your thing. But it sucks when it's not your thing. Because there is so much social pressure to drink. And there's so much of an expectation that if you're an adult, obviously, you're going to drink alcohol, because that's what adults do. 

So what do you do if you're not a drinker? Let's talk about some alternatives here. 

AUTUMN

65:25

I think if you're not a drinker, like first off, if you're not a drinker, but you just want to blend in, because you don't want to, you know, make it an issue, you can always have a virgin cocktail. You know, you just carry it around, you make it look like you're drinking, it doesn't have to be a big thing. But besides that, if you're actually just wanting to be like, you know, I want to go somewhere where drinking just isn't even a thing, you really do have to start becoming selective and I feel looking for a group of people or a person that feels similar to you that can have fun without alcohol. That can find a way to authentically connect enough that you don't need a foreign substance to break down your inhibitions so that you can have a human interaction. And those people are out there. 

Aand you can find smaller activities. And that's part of why I think a lot of people, I mean, maybe there are some D&D drinking parties. But I feel like a lot of people, they get into things like D&D, or gaming, or RC cars, or these “dorky” hobbies, as sometimes society looks at it, because they want to have fun without the alcohol. And that's why it's called dorky. But if you stop and you look at it, and you don't want to have alcohol, and you're interested in joining an RC car club, or a vintage car club, that's awesome, go do that. Maybe you can actually talk about Mustangs and Camaros, and things that interest you. And nobody has to get plastered doing it. Which is also really nice, because one you're having fun and not drinking alcohol while having fun is usually a lot cheaper. You’ll save a lot of money. 

And I would also say that if you feel like you need alcohol, not like you want to have a drink, because it's fun, but if you feel like you need alcohol, in order to interact with others, I would highly encourage you to start looking at that to maybe do some work. And I'm not going to say that's going to change tomorrow because you buy one self-help book. But a lot of times when we feel like we need alcohol, there are bigger issues going on the social anxiety or fear of failure or other things along those lines that are keeping you from being able to connect and have relationships with other adults. And if that's the case, maybe do some of the work so that those issues aren't festering under the surface. 

Okay, so let's go ahead and move on to another aspect of the hot girl summer, which is the whole concept of being free and freedom. I feel like part of this, at least from the social media, I see really feels about being single, like you're not tied down to a man because again, you're stereotypical, so we're looking at the heterosexual relationship. But it is that idea of like you're single and free and open to love and new experiences. Which is kind of interesting, I guess, to me that freedom is so directly associated with whether or not you're in a relationship, because that seems a little odd to me. 

IVY

68:10

That seemed a little odd to me, too. I never really thought about that when I was seeing hot girl summer posts on social media until we were looking up the definition of hot girl summer. And I was actually surprised to see how many of the definitions really put an emphasis on being a single woman. And then when I thought back about it, I realized oh, yeah, I guess almost all of the imagery that I see associated with hot girl summer, it's being out and about with your female friends, going to parties with your female friends. And if there is a guy that's involved in that imagery, it's kind of like the dude that you just met at the party that night. That maybe he'll flirt with and then that'll be it. Or maybe it'll be a one-night stand and that'll be it because you are a free woman, you know. You don't need no relationship you don't need no man. 

So apparently, if you are in a relationship, you are automatically subservient to your partner. You're just not allowed to have a hot girl summer. Hot girl summers are exclusively for single women, which I did not realize was part of that until recently. And it also seems odd to me, because I'm pretty sure that even if you're not in the dating market, you could still be hot and attractive and feel free and liberated and have fun while still being in a relationship. Maybe by this ideology, I'm doing something wrong, but I feel like being with Kelvin has not limited me in terms of being an attractive woman who is independent and has fun, sometimes with friends and sometimes just on my own. I never felt like he was holding me back to having a hot girl summer. I didn't know that that was part of it.

AUTUMN

69:52

That's really what all men want: to hold you back from your hot girls summer. That's why you should never be in relationships with them. Joking aside though, I think part of the reason that being free is probably tied with the idea of being single is I think they're trying to say you're sexually free. So first off, let's just set aside the stereotype that if you're in a relationship, you are monogamous, and you don't sleep with other people. I think part of the reason the idea of being free is tied with being single is there a little bit of undertones of being sexually free. And so if you're single, you're allowed to be sexually free, which I feel then speaks to the societal expectations of promiscuity. And what's expected to be like hot or sexy is that you are sexually available, I don't really feel comfortable with that. Personally, you know, my sexual availability should not necessarily have to be tied into my freedom. 

You know, even sex aside, I don't feel like my relationship status is tied into my freedom, either. Because I can be in a relationship and still be relatively competent, and independent and free and to make my own choices. Even if I do have to compromise with somebody, compromise does not all of a sudden mean, I've lost my ability to be free. And so I feel like when it comes to this particular component of hot girl summer, we really need to break with the stereotype completely. And let's just focus on freedom. 

What does it mean to you to be free? Is that mean, you aren't in a relationship, and you don't have to answer and compromise with somebody? Or does that mean that you feel like you're not beholden to other people or you're not in debt to other people? Freedom can mean so many different things, depending on who you are. And I feel like that's more the aspect we need to be focused on when you're developing that freedom and you're trying to get your hot girls summer or your goblin girl summer is what makes me feel free. What makes me feel liberated? 

IVY

71:44

Yeah, it's interesting to me that you brought up the connection between the hot girl summer style of freedom, and sexual availability, because that was actually not something that I thought about at all that like I am thinking about now. And I can definitely see how that that ties in. What I was thinking, I was just coming from a completely different perspective was that because culturally, we are basically or have been, at least is changing now, but have been kind of taught that, as women, one of our biggest goals is supposed to be to find a partner to be monogamous to be in that relationship. And so once you get into that relationship, well, what would you need a hot girl summer for. The hot girl Summer is almost more like a consolation prize for the women who were single. Like, that's the way that my brain was interpreting it as was that. 

Well, the women that are in relationships, well, what would you need a hot girl summer for you don't need it for anything, you've already achieved your goal, you're in a relationship, you're in a committed relationship. And that should be your entire focus is being in that relationship, because there's a woman. That is at least that's what I remember being taught. I don't know if that was just because we grew up in the Bible Belt or because we were raised Mormon. But I feel like it was bigger than that. I feel like it kind of goes into you know, the, the Disney Princesses of old, as a woman, your goal is to grow up, get into a committed relationship, get married, have a family, that's your entire focus, you have no other identity outside of that. And so to me, the way that I was looking at it was that it's so the hot girl summer is so tied into singleness, because one women in relationships don't get to have an identity outside of their relationship. But also, the hot girl summer is kind of like a consolation prize to single women that it's like, yeah, you're not in a relationship, you don't have your person. But that's okay. Because you get to go party and have fun with your friends instead. 

That's how I was interpreting it, which is kind of an interesting because I don't think either, I don't think either of our perceptions on this are necessarily wrong. I think it's one of those things that has multiple meanings. And there's probably other perspectives on it, that neither of us even thought about to begin with. 

It's interesting to me, that singleness seems to be such a big part of the idea of hot girl summer, because prior to us looking up the definition, it never occurred to me that it had anything to do with being single. And maybe that's because I'm in a relationship where I still have a lot of freedom. I imagine there's probably a lot of women that are in relationships, where maybe they don't have the freedom, if you want to call it that, to go outside of their relationship to just go have fun with their friends for a while. Maybe everything for them does have to include their partner being there or include their partner’s permission to go and do things. Which I mean, that can be part of the compromise that you were talking about. But sometimes that can be taken much further if you are in a relationship with somebody who is controlling. And so on some level that hot girl summer, for some people may be a luxury that they don't get to have when they're in a relationship because of the nature of the relationship that they have with their partner which is a whole nother problem that I think is gets overlooked in the entire hot girl summer kind of ideology.

AUTUMN

75:08

I can definitely see that perspective of it. But even with that, though, I think, right there, part of what you're talking about is the idea of like, well, you have to do everything with your partner. And so you're not free. And maybe I'm, maybe I'm just deluded, because that's very good possibility. I have what I would say is a very, extremely interdependent relationship, where I would say 90 to 95% of the activities we do involve the other person. So, we are very interconnected. But to me, doing everything with my partner, and having them constantly there, and all of my activities around them is part of what makes me feel free. Because I have their stability and their presence in a social interaction, I feel safer, and I feel more confident. And thus, I feel freer to do different things. 

And that's how it is in many areas. Because my partner is always there, I experience a sense of freedom, because I trust my partner to share in the responsibility of whatever that is. And in sharing that responsibility, I no longer feel as much of it, which makes me feel lighter and happier. And so I think just the entire concept that our society has around singleness and freedom and relationships is this intermix for women. I feel like that's not something that can be generalized. I feel like ,you know, a lot of things is well, whatever you want, and whatever makes sense for you. But I feel like this one very much specifically is a very, very unique, very unique, that's based on the fingerprint of your relationship, or lack of relationship or your choice not to be in a relationship, depending on you and the situation. And the reasons for all this really shapes what freedom means and how that's interrelated with a relationship at all, if it even is for you. 

IVY

76:57

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Because I feel like in my relationship, I have a ton of freedom. Maybe in some way, similar to what you and Jake have. But, in some ways very different. Because with Kelvin and I, both of us are very independent people, but we also really enjoy each other's company. And in either situation, I feel like I do have a lot of freedom. Because when we are spending time apart, I do sometimes go and hang out with friends, or I spend my time as I damn well please, on my own, and Kelvin, he never questions it, I don't feel like I have to answer to him for how I spent my time. And then when we are together, I feel very free in the sense that being with him does give me a sense of safety and security. On this level, it is not fair as women in society. But I do feel that when I'm with Kelvin, I am physically safer, I feel less likely that harm is going to come to me because I know that I have him there to help protect me in situations or help me to avoid situations where maybe I would potentially be in in danger in a maybe predatory environment. 

I also feel like I have a lot of freedom in the sense that when we do go out and we do things together, he does not try to control any of my behavior. He doesn't say anything about the way that I dress, he lets me be entirely myself because he trusts me. And he lets me be authentically me because he loves the person that I am. And I also have freedom with him because he is a much more social person than I am. And so that decreases the social demands on me, which is very helpful for me. So I agree with you that this is a very individualistic thing. And it is impossible to generalize this because you can have a lot of freedom within the context of a relationship. And you can have a lot of freedom outside of a relationship. And in both situations, there's also the possibility that you may have certain freedoms stripped from you. But there's no way to completely tie in accurately anyway, there's no way to tie in the idea of freedom with simply being single. 

So, let's look outside of the context of relationships. Because there's more to freedom than just being single or being in a relationship. Another thing that tends to fall into this umbrella, the hot girl summer, in terms of freedom is that there seem to be again from the imagery that we see kind of this attitude that certain activities and behaviors suggest that you are more free. And the most common thing that I see here as far as being free and uninhibited is the partying. That seems to be almost all the images that I see it's either people on vacation, or it's people partying, or it's people partying while on vacation, and that may be applicable to you. I think that's probably not applicable to a large percentage of people actually, because not everybody enjoys partying. Not everybody has the means or desire to go on these big vacations. Not everybody is super social. 

Some people are very introverted. Some people like to do things are away from other people, some people like to stay close to home. And it's weird to me that the hot girl summer image of freedom is that you're spending all of your time going out and partying and drinking with friends and doing all of that stuff. Because that's not what freedom is going to look like for everybody. And that's one of the reasons why I've never considered myself as having a hot girl summer because to me that was part of the image. That was part of the whole vibe was being a party girl. And I'm just, I'm just not. I'm not interested in those things. It's not something that I feel comfortable doing. 

I think we need to broaden our horizons on this idea, that the only way to really express this wild free side of you and to be carefree. And you know, the wild child or the free spirit, like the only way to do that is to be a party girl. Because obviously, that's not going to be accurate for everybody. I never feel more free than when I'm out in the middle of the woods, camping. That's how I feel most free, or going on a long road trip that feels like freedom to me, going to a party feels like a prison. To me personally. It's like a very bad, horrible prison.

AUTUMN

81:16

 I think that part of the reason there's so much partying and so much vacations, and that's  the aspect that gets associated with freedom for us is because I feel like while some people do those things, just because yes, they enjoy it, a lot of people I feel go partying on the weekend or get plastered or go on vacation because they're trying to escape certain things. Maybe they're trying to escape their job, or their whole home life or society for a little while, or the expectations that are put on them as an adult or a parent or a spouse or whatever it happens to be. And I think that escapism is what makes us feel free. Because look, I'm free from my responsibilities. I'm free from my job, I'm free from whatever it was I was trying to escape. And I will say on that part, when it comes to building freedom, if you are doing these things because you need to escape and because you want to be free from something, I would definitely highly encourage you to look at what you're trying to get free from and ask yourself if there's some way you can rearrange or change your life do that that freedom isn't an escape from the norm, but it is the norm. 

I mean, that's part of the reason I've given up electricity and indoor plumbing is so that I can feel more free regularly. And I don't have to go camping or on a vacation or road trip to escape my life because my life is something I want to continue to be in. 

IVY

82:40

One last point that we'll make here on the note of freedom is that, again, with this imagery that we see of the hot girl summer, everybody looks so stoked and happy and enthusiastic and bubbly all the time because they're living their best life and everything is amazing and everything is great. And they've got these big smiles all the time. And they always seem like they're having fun. And I think that's also another reason why this is not relatable to a lot of people. Especially I would say to probably a lot of people in our listenership because a lot of the people in our listenership obviously you're gonna be neurodivergent you're gonna have mental health struggles, you're have a trauma history, because that's probably how you found us is that you were looking for podcasts that have to do with those things. And a lot of us do have struggles with things like depression or social anxiety or things that we feel do limit us in some ways from being happy and bubbly and all that all the time. 

I mean, that's not realistic anyway, even for neurotypical people that have this expectation that you're going to be happy and enthusiastic and exuberant about life 100% of the time, and yet that's part of the imagery that we get is that hot girl summer also equates to you being happy all the time. This is this is one of the areas where I say yeah, go goblin girl summer, because one of the things to me that comes along with true freedom is not feeling pressured to be happy all the time. Just because it's summer just because the sun is out just because everybody is having fun and they're going out and doing things and there's all this cool stuff to do and all these people to hang out with that doesn't automatically mean that you are going to be happy.

And you should not pressure yourself into feeling something that you do not feel. Because, I don't know about you, but I've definitely had summers where I felt like shit, where I had crippling anxiety or where my depression was really bad and I crashed out I did not have it in me to enjoy summer. And I felt shitty about the fact that I couldn't enjoy summer I spent a lot of time comparing myself to all these other people who were enjoying life and having a great time. That was not the space that I was in and as I've gotten older, I've come to a point where I give myself more, more freedom to be gentle with myself and not have these expectations all the time.

Of course, we would all love to feel contented and happy and be in a good place. Those are wonderful feelings, and we'd like to hold on to them when we get them. But just because it's summer, that doesn't guarantee that you're going to be in a good headspace. And you shouldn't feel pressured to be in a good headspace when you're not. Yes, there'll be times when you will have to mask and pretend to be happy, put on a good face. There will be times you'll have to do that. But you shouldn't be beating up on yourself if you are struggling this summer with your mental health, you're having problems with depression or anxiety or anything that you might be struggling with. If you're struggling, that is okay, too. And if you need to not go out and do a bunch of stuff, that's fine to give yourself some of that room. 

Obviously, don't completely shut yourself off and isolate yourself, because that can make the depression or anxiety like that can make those things worse in the long haul. But if you have a weekend where, man, you just really need to take a break, and not have to be happy and smiling and just let yourself rest and feel whatever it is that you need to feel that is totally okay. You do not need to feel pressured to be happy just because it's summer and summer is a time you're supposed to be happy. You are no less wonderful and valuable and worthy and attractive, just because you're not feeling it this summer. 

AUTUMN

86:30

I feel like that ties directly into the next big concept with the hot girls summer, which is not caring about what others think. Because a lot of us do feel pressured to look happier, appear happy and put that mask on because we do care about what others think. And I feel like that's also why a lot of us try to look good and do a lot of these other hot girl summer things is because we do care about what other people think. Which is why the idea that not caring about what other people think seems like such a contradictory idea to me for the hot girl summers. 

I was really kind of surprised to see this in so many of the definitions, we looked up that hot girl summer is all about not caring about what other people think. Because when I look at the media, to me, it looks like everybody's masking. Everybody's trying really hard to meet the social stereotype. Because they do care about what other people think. And so that was a really confusing concept that they included this in the hot girl summer, because to me not caring what others think feels more goblin girl summer. 

AUTUMN

87:30

I was also super confused when I saw that. Because not once have I ever seen any of the imagery associated with hot girl summer and thought she doesn't really care what anybody thinks, she's totally confident, she's doing whatever she wants. Because again, I feel like all of the imagery that's associated with hot girl summer is one very specific path. And maybe for you, that is your path and you don't care what other people think because you're you already are complying with the image of hot girl summer. And I'm not trying to shame you if that's the case. Like if that's the case, right on, good for you. But not everybody has the same ideas of what they want their summer to look like or what they want themselves to look like. 

And so what about us? What about those of us that don't fit the imagery of hot girl summer? If we say I don't care what other people think but we don't fit that imagery of hot girl summer, then do we get to say it's a hot girl summer? I'm guessing not I guess then we do have to go something like goblin girl summer because now we're out of alignment with what hot girl summer means. 

And that was really confusing for me as well. Because to me,  like Autumn said, it seems like everybody's masking. It seems like everybody's trying to be in line with this particular ideology. It seems like everybody's doing the same thing. They have a similar look, they're doing the same kinds of activities, they all have the same facial expression on like, everybody is doing the same thing. So if you're all doing the same thing you can say you don't care what other people think because everybody around you, as an echo chamber have the exact same thing. So how do you even know if you don't care what other people think if you're on an echo chamber of other people that are thinking the same way that you do? 

AUTUMN

89:17

That's a really good point. And I think with that too, though, I love the theory of not giving a fuck what other people think, but I feel like that's an unreasonable expectation to have all the time. Unfortunately, we do have to care about what other people think about us. For some of us caring about what other people think is what keeps us alive because there are still some extremely ist places in the United States. Whether that's sexist or racist areas where you need to be aware of the views the other people hold the view so that you can keep yourself safe. And that's an extreme end, yes, but what about going into a job interview when you desperately need a job and not giving a fuck what the interviewer thinks? That's not going to work well. Getting pulled over and trying to get out of a ticket with a cop and not giving a fuck what the cop thinks, again, that's not going to work. 

Like I love that theory of just being like, so confident, like, I don't fucking care what anybody thinks about me. But I also feel like if you take that to the extreme, you're gonna get in a little bit of trouble, not be able to function very well in society. And I think also taken to the extreme on that end as well, you're gonna damage some relationships.

IVY

90:28

I would absolutely agree that damages some relationships when you literally don't care what anybody else thinks. For instance, in my relationship, I can't imagine looking at Kelvin at any point and say, Yeah, I don't care what you think. I don't care what you think. I don't care what you feel like. That's, that's irrelevant to me. I only care about what I think, what I feel. I think if you do that, in an intimate relationship, you're kind of an asshole. I mean, personally, not saying you have to cave in all the time either, but it is kind of important if you're going to be in an intimate relationship of any kind, not necessarily just a romantic one. This could be with family and friends as well. 

It is important to care to a certain degree about what they think and what they feel, that's being empathetic, that's having compassion that's showing that you are willing to compromise and work with them. That’s showing that you really do love them. And so to a certain degree, yes, I think we do need to care about what people think and what they feel. That doesn't mean we have to trample on ourselves. But it does mean being human, and loving and caring and being open and vulnerable. And working with somebody. That's what intimacy is. You can't be truly intimate, I don't think anyway, without caring about what they think or what they feel. 

But even on a broader scale, when you get outside of those intimate relationships. Yes, sometimes you may be able to genuinely not care what other people think. But we are still human. And so things that people say or do will affect us. And everybody, no matter how strong they are, no matter how competent they are, we'll have moments where they are vulnerable, will have moments where they get exhausted, will have moments where they feel insecure. I see this a lot with the body positivity influencers that I follow. There's several of them that I follow and I have a lot of respect for them. One of the things that I have noticed consistently with every single one of them is about once every two to three months or so they will post something in their stories or make a post on their main feed saying they're taking a step away for a little bit because of all of the hurtful, cruel comments that they get from other people. Yeah, a lot of times they can let it bounce off. They may even make jokes about it. But eventually, if you get enough people who are attacking you or being cruel to you, or they're just saying things that are just appalling - Like why would you? Why would you be so cruel to somebody, especially somebody that you don't even know?

Eventually, if you get enough of that, it will break you down, it will hurt. And it's unreasonable to expect ourselves to just never care what other people think, because we are human and we do have feelings, we do have vulnerabilities, we do have insecurities. It's okay to have those things. And it's okay to feel pain or to feel anger or resentment. It's okay to feel those things in response to how somebody is treating you. It is not a reasonable expectation that you should just be able to let everything bounce off of you and not let it affect you. 

AUTUMN

93:57

It's a balancing act. It is really is. Because, no, you don't want to never care what people think about you, because that's going to be damaging, and narcissistic, most likely. But you also don't want to be consumed with what other people think where you're constantly changing who you are, and your beliefs and your opinions just so that you can gain other people's approval. It's a balancing act that's going to shift or change depending on the circumstances and your current place on the journey and the relationship and the context of the situation. 

And I do believe that some of us, many of us, all of us can get overly concerned though, with what other people think. A lot of these expectations and standards we've talked about throughout this episode are there, I would say, in part to keep us unsure of ourselves, to keep us wavering, to keep us thinking we're not good enough. In part because yes, they want us to spend money so that we can attempt to be good enough but also in part because it's a lot easier to beat down and keep down somebody that's not confident in their own abilities. That's constantly consumed with worry about what other people think. 

And so if you find yourself being consumed with that idea and wanting to change and people please all the time, maybe you need to then really dive into and explore the last big concept of this hot girl summer, which is being confident. And now I will say, whether we're talking goblin girl summer or hot girl summer, I feel like this is a big piece of it. Because yes, those girls out there, they are pretty, and they are tan and blonde, and whatever, and they meet these societal beauty expectations. But they are confident. They're out there posing. 

And I have met a lot of beautiful women in my life who meet all these standards. And they're still not confident, they're still terrified they're not enough. They’re still terrified that people are going to judge them because their makeups not right or their manicure is messed up from a couple of days of hard work. And so the very fact that anybody can go out and take a picture of themselves in the bikini, regardless of what they look like, to me is confidence. And I think that is something that is worth building up in ourselves so that we can start altering some of these societal expectations and feeling like we are capable of changing them, and not just having to serve them all the time. 

IVY

96:13

A lot of times, there seems to be this almost direct correlation between the idea of confidence and looking good, feeling like you're attractive or feeling sexy or feeling cute, whatever it is, it's tied into appearances. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, with building confidence in how you look, there's nothing wrong with that at all. But this is another one of those areas where I feel like it can get really limiting because often the road to confidence is painted as being something that you start externally with how you look. And that's not always actually going to be the road to confidence for all people. 

There are so many things that we can struggle with and our road to confidence will not always directly involve how we look. It can, but it doesn't have to. So if you are somebody that struggles with your confidence, I would strongly suggest that you really explore why it is that you're struggling to love yourself or at least to have a healthy, balanced view of yourself. Does it have anything to do with how you look? Or is this something that making yourself look prettier, or more attractive, won't fix? Not everything that has to do with our confidence has anything to do with how we look. A lot of times as women that does get wrapped up in it, because there is so much pressure to look a certain way. But that doesn't have to be all of it. And maybe it doesn't really even have to be a part of your confidence journey. And maybe your confidence needs to be built up in other areas that have nothing to do with how you look at all.

AUTUMN

97:49

I will testify to that because I would say I still don't have a lot of confidence in the way I look, I never really have. But I would also say that I'm a very confident person. And a lot of people would also say I'm a very confident person. And a big part of my confidence journey has honestly been capabilities. For the longest time part of what kept me feeling insecure, was fear. Fear that I could not be enough, that I could not survive, that I could not meet the challenges of life. Because I had grown up seeing my mom who had been torn down by the challenges and stressors that life had thrown at her completely destroyed by them. And I was terrified that that was in me that I was not going to be able to be strong enough to meet these head on. 

And the other part of what happened during my childhood was I was given excessive responsibility, which I was not enough to meet. I did not have enough knowledge, enough skills, enough maturity to actually be the person that was expected for me during my entire adolescence. And so I grew up feeling one), I'm going to buckle under pressure and two) no matter what I do, it's not good enough. And so I always felt really insecure. That started to change. When I just started doing shit. I proved to myself I could figure out how to design a fireplace and put it in my house safely. I figured out I could figure out how to build a house or a shed or whatever it happened to be. I just started doing things that mattered to me that were about my safety or keeping me alive or important to me. And then when I accomplish them. I was like fuck yeah, look at me, I did that. And so now when I’m staring down, you know, the barrel of my 40s I've been homeless, and I didn't fold and I've been unemployed, and I didn't fold and I've been terrified and alone and scared and I didn't fold. And that is confidence to me. 

And even those times that I failed, have built my confidence. So when I tried to do something and I failed, I look back on that and go, Yeah, but I got back up on that horse again. So even if I fail again, maybe bigger, maybe bolder, i's not going to stop me. I'm going to keep going. And that's where my confidence came in was capability. 

IVY

100:02

I think that kind of actually ties into our next point. This is something that I've been seeing a lot of on social media. Women, I think, a lot in general, in most parts of the world, we are kind of expected to keep ourselves small. We're expected to be passive, to keep our opinions to ourselves to be pleasant to sit still and look pretty. And that has been an expectation for a really long time. And so I will just speak for myself here, I'm not going to talk about other women, because I don't know where you guys are at in your journey, but this is where I'm at in my journey. 

I have been seeing so many people talking about the idea of taking up space. And I've never really thought about that before. As I've been seeing that more and more, I've really been thinking about what that means and how it would apply to me. And thinking about the ways in which I have made myself small. For all of my stubbornness and my independence, I am now seeing a lot of ways in which I did give in to that societal pressure that as a woman, I should make myself small. So I have kept a lot of my opinions to myself. Over the years, I have tried to fit in with beauty standards, more than I would care to admit. I have been more submissive in a lot of my relationships then I would care to admit. 

Some of those things I really didn't realize until recently. The being submissive in my relationships, I didn't realize until I got together with Kelvin, how much I had made myself small in past relationships. He is the first man that I have ever been with that I don't think he has a misogynistic bone in his body. He's always been supportive of me and encouraged me, he's never put me down. He's never made comments about my weight or my appearance, or he's never mansplaining me, he's never done anything like that. And that man fully believes I am just as capable as he is of damn near everything, unless it has to do with upper body strength. Okay, that's pretty much it. That's the only thing he recognizes that he has an advantage on. But I've never been with somebody that treated me like that. 

And it wasn't until I got together with him that I realized how much I had made myself small and submissive and quiet in past relationships. I didn't realize how much I was overly concerned with my appearance and my weight and my makeup until I got into this relationship. I didn't realize how overly concerned I was with my sexuality and whether I was a good sexual partner until I got into this relationship, where I have been loved and valued and appreciated completely as I am. And that is only one example. One area in which I have made myself small over the years. 

And I feel like a lot of women do struggle with this. And I feel like with the hot girl summer movement, and a lot of these other hashtag things, sometimes it feels like a lip service to feminism without actually being real and authentic and raw. It kind of glosses over the surface and says, Yeah, girl power, but it doesn't really say much beyond that. This, to me is one of the most important ways of building competence. And it's something that I am actively working on right now is allowing myself to take up space to be unapologetic for existing in this world. To see my voice and my opinions as having equal value not just to men, but to other people in general. Allowing myself to take up room in this world is one of the ways in which I am working on building my confidence right now. Even though I can't speak to other women, I suspect that this is probably true, in some ways, for a lot of women, especially based on how often I'm seeing this theme come up in social media with the influencers that I follow, and even among some of my friends too. This idea that maybe it's time for us to be okay with ourselves in this world and allow ourselves to just exist, and be unapologetic about existing and having thoughts and having feelings and being ourselves and looking the way that we want to look dressing the way that we want to dress expressing ourselves as we wish to express ourselves. 

AUTUMN

104:26

That is a huge step in building confidence even letting yourself just exist. That's really hard to do, though. I mean, I've always blamed my PTSD and my masking, but I do feel part of it, too, is just being a female in the society. I apologize so much. If I'm in somebody's way, if I bump into somebody, if somebody bumps into me, like I am always apologetic and part of that is because I feel like I have to apologize for me for existing. And so it's hard to break that habit of so many years.

With confidence too and building that sense of confidence in in taking up that space, I believe part of that also is knowing who you are in that space. Because in order to fill a space, you have to have like a personality and ideas and opinions to put into that space. And the same way with being confident, Well, what are you being confident in? Who are you? What capabilities actually matter to you? What values actually matter to you to take confidence in? And that can be something that's very difficult for a lot of us that have spent so many years masking is even knowing who we are. And so for me, part of that confidence journey was just figuring out who I actually am. Not who society expected me to be, not who family or friends or work or boyfriends expected me to be, but who did I want to be? Who was I and who did I want to become? And once I was able to establish more, which I'm still working on, you know, figuring who is on behind the mask, that's still part of my journey. But as I'm figuring that out, that also builds my confidence, because now when I do something that I truly value, and that matters to me, I can be confident in that. And I can take up space with that, because it feels like an authentic part of myself. 

IVY

106:14

You know, both of the things that we were talking about right here actually brings to mind for me something I've been currently hyper fixated on, and it's this rabbit hole that I've gone down about cults and like fundamentalist Christian groups and things along those lines. The idea that comes up a lot, is the idea of deconstructing and deprogramming. And while they're talking about it, specifically, in the context of, you know, religion and spirituality, I think, on a broader scale, it applies in so many other ways. Because there's so many things that we get programmed into us by society, or by our life experiences, and our traumas, we don't even think about anymore. They become so normalized to us, we don't even question them anymore. And part of building confidence is being able to question those things and push back against them. 

And that's really our last point today that we're going to be talking about is building confidence by doing the things that scare you. Develop your capabilities, work on the things that matter to you discover what those things even are. Go out on a limb, think different things, try different things. See what actually suits you. Discover who you are, so that you can take up space. 

The only way that we do that is by constantly asking questions of ourselves and asking questions about the world around us and thinking again, about our viewpoints. And do they still fit with how we used to think? Or is there this cognitive dissonance now? And how do we want to deal with that? And do we want to keep living the same way that we've been living? Or do we want to push those boundaries and see what else is out there and see what more we can do, what more we're capable of. Because even if it doesn't work out the way that you expect it, like Autumn, even when she failed, she still built that confidence. Because when you try things, when you push the boundaries, when you do things that scare you, and you test yourself, if nothing else, even if the outcome is not what you expected, or it's not necessarily what you wanted, what you did learn from that is that you have some hutzpah. You have the oomph. You have in you the courage to try and to keep at it and to be resilient. It's not always fun to be resilient. But at least when you give it your all, when you try things, when you do the things that scare you, you know what you are capable of, and that you have it in you to keep going and to keep questioning and to keep pushing. That builds confidence in and of itself. That builds a sense of accomplishment, even if you didn't get the intended outcome. You know, what you're made of.

AUTUMN

109:03

 Yes, I totally agree with that concept. And you know, one of the things you said there was being resilient isn't always fun. And I will agree with that. Having been knocked off the metaphorical horse time and time again by myself, by life, by other people. It's not fun having to get up out of the dirt again and again. But I will say one) the view and the experience and the life I lead on the horse is so much better than what you get in the dirt and so it's definitely worth doing it again and again. And two) I'm very grateful for the times in my dirt because that's helped me learn how to stay on the horse more consistently and have that confidence more consistently. 

And so whether you choose this summer to have a hot girl summer, or a goblin girl summer, or hell have a hot goblin summer, we hope that you're able to work on some of these things, breaking down the social expectations around what looking good is and finding ways to have fun that's actually fun for you or reducing your concern with what other people think about you and building that confidence. I think you can do it this summer. Hot girls, goblin girls, all y'all you got this. 

So for today though, let's go ahead and wrap up. I will have Ivy throw you are connecting bits. 

IVY

110:21

So I'm just gonna say for my part this summer, I'm going to aim for like, sexy awkward goblin girl summer. That's, I think that's going to be my thing that I'm going to aim for. What about you Autumn? Do you have a goal? 

AUTUMN

110:34

I just wants to be like migraine free summer period, that would be great. But since that's not actually achievable, I'm gonna go with chill witchy goblin girl summer. Like I just want to be like, so boring, but I also want to kind of be barefoot, you know, and nude under the moon type thing and definitely, just kind of the goblin vibe. So that's what I'm going for. 

IVY

111:01

I like that. That's that is a good goal. 

All right. Well, if you want to let us know what you are going to make your summer, we would love to hear it. We would love to hear how creative you are and hear your thoughts on anything that we said today. Or any of your thoughts about the concept of hot girl summer or goblin girl snubber, or any kind of summer. We would just love to hear from you guys.

You can find us at our website, www.different functional.com. There's a contact form on there where you can reach out to us. You can find us on social media, we are on Facebook as different functional, and we are on Instagram and Tiktok as different_ functional, you can reach us at our email different functional@gmail.com. And if you're diggin the podcast, and you want to hear more from us, you could join our Patreon. We are on Patreon as different functional, if you couldn't have guessed. 

And if you are enjoying the podcast, and you like us, and you want the world to know that you like us, that would be great. Because if you tell the world that you like us and the world finds us that gives us even more incentive to keep doing this podcast which we love to do. And we really would like to build a sense of community with you guys, we want to hear from you. We want to talk to you. And we want to make other connections through you so we can actually build kind of a community here. 

And one last note, and I know that I begged for this every time but I'm gonna keep begging because I'm weak in that way, I guess. But if you could leave us a rating and review, comment, follow subscribe, do all the things all of that helps us to build a following so that we can invest more time in this ideally, and make the podcast even better and maybe put out episodes more frequently which is a goal for us. So if you guys could do that for us, it would be wonderful and much appreciated. 

AUTUMN

113:02

Please like us. I feel like that's kind of what it comes down to. Not just please like us but please interact with us and please Yes, spread the word. We love doing this. 

Alright, thank you everybody for listening in today. I wish you the best summer whatever that summer might be. And as always remember different does not mean defective.